Gear drive Hydraulics

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Tim DeLooza
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Gear drive Hydraulics

Post by Tim DeLooza »

I’m toying with adding hydraulic lift to a gear drive tractor. I want to use the rear as a reservoir and I’ll get a small hydraulic pump to power it. It’s my understanding that typically the filter would go on the return side. In a normal hydraulic only system this is fine but being a gear drive transmission I’m wondering if the filter should be on the “suction” side of the pump. I’ve looked at the blow out schematic for the hydrostatic transmissions and the filter is on the suction side of the charge pump. Any thoughts?

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mgonitzke
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Re: Gear drive Hydraulics

Post by mgonitzke »

I put the filter before the pump on my loader...I don't see any reason to have contaminants going though the pump, the least debris-tolerant part of the whole system, before the filter. I will do the same when I add hydraulics to my 582.
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Paul B
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Re: Gear drive Hydraulics

Post by Paul B »

Tim,
The numbered series International Cub Lo-Boy's, 154, 185, 184 all use the transmission as the hydraulic reservoir, and all 3 have the filter in the suction line before the pump. The suction line screws into the drain hole in the bottom of the case, and the return line screws into the left side of the case or to a tube down through the shift lever top plate, depending on the serial number of the tractor (154). Uncle Ray could prolly fix you up with a 154 filter housing if you don't already have something.
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mmzullo
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Re: Gear drive Hydraulics

Post by mmzullo »

I think the only problem the filter has to be specific for a suction side hydraulic system. How about a fine meas filter for larger debri? here's one from suplus center.http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?i ... 7&catname=

junderwood
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Re: Gear drive Hydraulics

Post by junderwood »

With a simple gear pump system you can chew up a lot of crap and not hurt the pump. They are fairly robust. I would just put a screen on the suction side and then run a return filter. Suction side filter if too restrictive can be more destructive through cavitation of the pump than the small debris going through the pump. The only caveat to this is the control valve could be at a little more risk to getting debris in it. Most of the systems I work on during my day job are this way to prevent poor inlet characteristics on the pumps and run much more complex pumps that don't eat debris very well. Also, if you do have debris enter through the down stream connections it is filtered out before the tank (trans case).

I would screw something like this into the case http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?i ... =hydraulic and then put a 25 micron return filter in. There may be a better one out there in the 8-10 gpm range that would make me feel better for the flow capability. 5gpm should be plenty, but I like a little margin when I spec systems like this.

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Tim DeLooza
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Re: Gear drive Hydraulics

Post by Tim DeLooza »

I’m really more concerned about metal filings from the gears (can’t find ‘um grind ‘um) and who knows a tooth or two getting into the pump. The screen John U posted would “filter” most of that. I’m not sure if there’s space at the gear drive drain plug to make it 1” pipe thread though. Space is a concern because it’s a NF small tunnel tractor. I was planning on using a stock CC hydro filter so that would be designed for suction. I’m not sure of the base I can mount it to though. I was thinking an external oil filter base from a series II Kohler but as I remember the ports on them are rather small and I’m not sure they can be made bigger. Another thought I had was will I need a relief valve? I don’t think the CC lift valves have a relief built into them because the relief springs are in the hydro pump.

junderwood
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Re: Gear drive Hydraulics

Post by junderwood »

Tim,

You will need a relief valve. Depending on how many circuits you want the new Prince Wolverine series is available from Surplus center very reasonable and has a relief built into it.

On the screen I would do some searching to find a similar screen that is the right size to screw into the trans case. There should be something smaller out there. I just haven't done a lot of looking and am used to the 3" size for over 100 GPM. 70hp chainsaws use a lot of flow.

bruce s
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Re: Gear drive Hydraulics

Post by bruce s »

Tim I believe there was a post by (Ismurphy) Scott Murphy back in Mar 26 2011. The post was started by ( vince_o ) If you can look that up there is a lot of good info and pictures . I found all the parts at suplus center ,and cub stuff that I had layin around . Be sure to post some pictures of your progress . :beer:

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Paul B
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Re: Gear drive Hydraulics

Post by Paul B »

At least look at the hydraulic lift parts breakdown for the numbered Cub Lo-Boy's. The tractors use the same basic transmission and case as the cub Cadets (minus the gear reduction on the front of the case), the system was designed by IH engineers, and you can use any or all of the componets except the pump (it bolts into the left front of the engine block) and the hyd lines as they are. The lines would have to be modified to fit the space available. The filter is a screw on type, and the base can be mounted where space is available. Depending on the serial number of the tractor the system is on, it may use a 1500psi relief valve, or the control valve may contain a relief. They used a single control valve for the belly lift, and if it also had a 3 point hitch it had selector valve to select the belly or rear lift. You can see the parts break down on the Cub Cadet web sight, http://www.cubcadet.com/webapp/wcs/stor ... ogId=14101 . under parts by model, International Harvester, Cub and Cub Lo-Boy, and then 154/185/184, then Hyd Lift. There are about 4 or so different breakdowns, depending on the S/N of the tractor.
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DaveKamp
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Re: Gear drive Hydraulics

Post by DaveKamp »

Hi Guys, Hi Tim!

You'll want to run a suction SCREEN on the pickup tube, but not a fine 'filter'. As John noted, a gear-type pump will easily manage most crud that'd come through, but you don't want the screen do do anything more than stop the large pieces, because doing so will cause the screen to become restrictive, and besides cavitating the pump (which will kill it rapidly) will also cause any flexible suction line to collapse and stop flow.

There's several techniques that'll allow this all to work really well- first is placement of your suction port- don't put it on the bottom of the pan, put it up a little bit, so that it can't draw crud. Make the suction screen go in sideways (horizontally) so that the screen's bottom side can get gunky, but you'll still pull from the sides and top. Third, place magnets on the bottom of the sump... clean the bottom good, and put some epoxy on 'em when you put 'em down there, so the magnetism AND epoxy hold them in place... this will catch any ferrous oopsie that falls down there, but gets drawn towards the screen. The screen's function is to keep the worst of uglies from getting to the pump, valves, and cylinders. Basically, if it survives the pump, the rest is insignificant.

Finally... oversize the suction inlet in comparison to the expected flow. By doing this, the inlet velocity at the suction point will be slow, and not likely to draw in heavy crud.

In a serious hydraulic system, return filters do most of the cleaning. After flow passes through the pump and valves, the returning fluid passes through a removable cartridge filter, and into the tank. The advantage here, is that the fluid is returning in a non-suction pressure range... and 'not much' pressure... the only restriction IS the cartridge, and there's typically a bypass valve IN the filter body so that if the filter becomes plugged and restrictive, the fluid can bypass to tank. Seems like it wouldn't do much good keeping the fluid clean, but it does, because GETTING fluid clean is something that must be done through proper maintenance, KEEPING it clean is accomplished by proper filtration. The final 'bonus' to running return filtration, is that the return filter can be mounted substantially above everything else, so that when the system is shut down, most of the fluid in the return filter's vicinity will run downstream into the reservoir. This means when you remove the filter, you won't be getting a rainstorm of fluid, nor will you fill the system with air that can't be rapidly purged.

On your hydraulic lift, are you planning on using a stock IHCC lift cylinder and valve? If so, your pump requirements will be very, very small in comparison to typical fluid power stuff... that cylinder has about an inch of surface area, and darned little total volume. IIRC the stock WF setup used the charge pump's 500psi-or-so, at about an eighth-of-a-gallon flow. What pump are you going to use?
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Farmallgray
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Re: Gear drive Hydraulics

Post by Farmallgray »

I would think a car power steering pump would work well.
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Tim DeLooza
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Re: Gear drive Hydraulics

Post by Tim DeLooza »

Dave, One thought I had was to use the charge pump from a hydro as the pump. I then looked at it and considered using the whole front plate from a hydro because then I would get the relief valve and filter mount all in one but the size of that unit doesn’t really fit anywhere nice. I intend on using a WF cylinder and valve because that’s what I have lots of. You are correct any pump I seem to find is really way overkill for what I need. I’m not sure if I can fit all the pieces in a “nice” place to make it worth while. Manual lift with spring assist is looking easier and easier and definitely cheaper.

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Re: Gear drive Hydraulics

Post by DaveKamp »

I think trying to stuff an entire charge pump setup in there would be a major PITA in comparison to belt driving something tiny off the engine.

And I'll bop Gonzo over the head for referring to the pump as the 'least debris tolerant'... because the pump really isn't intolerant... abused, yes, and akin to accelerated wear, yes, but the components that are LEAST TOLERANT... are the pressure relief valves, and the snubbing check-valves located inside the spools of the hydraulic valve assembly... get crud in THOSE things, and seriously strong stuff starts coming unglued in a VERY ungentlemanly fashion. Chewed up/worn out pumps just get weak and tired, but jammed up check valves cause oily explosions, broken drive couplings, and bent crankshafts. ;-)
Yes, I'm a Mad Scientist... but I'm usually happy, even when things ain't goin right.

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Tim DeLooza
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Re: Gear drive Hydraulics

Post by Tim DeLooza »

These pictures aren’t the greatest, but I made a little progress on the “engine stand” project the past few weeks.

Easiest way to work on a NF… Especially when you need to be on the top side and the bottom side at the same time to decide how the hydraulic lines are going to run.
engine stand 01.jpg
engine stand 01.jpg (163.36 KiB) Viewed 11668 times
The back of the cylinder mount is located in the same place as an electric lift would be and the bracket I made is similar. I have a clevis made for the other end that is slotted like an electric lift too. I decided to make my own rockshaft from scratch so I could have the offset where I wanted it.
engine stand 02.jpg
I’m going to try to use a charge pump for the pump. I actually started with two. I machined ports in the first one and the second one I machined down to a flat face so it would bolt to the first one. This way I get the support of a roller bearing on both ends of the shaft. I’ll have a pulley that will run off the drive cup of the engine. The square block with the lines going to it is the pressure relief that I’ve made. I’m going to use the “needle” and spring from one of the hydros I took the charge pump from.
engine stand 03.jpg

sacky07
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Re: Gear drive Hydraulics

Post by sacky07 »

was this ever finished?

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Tim DeLooza
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Re: Gear drive Hydraulics

Post by Tim DeLooza »

Dustin, No, sadly it’s still in the same mess of a corner that it has been sitting for the past year and a half.
engstand.jpg
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Marlin
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Re: Gear drive Hydraulics

Post by Marlin »

How about using a fuel oil pump as a charge pump? That's what they used on the prototype hydro Original for a charge pump.

sacky07
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Re: Gear drive Hydraulics

Post by sacky07 »

lets get this finished!!

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BigMike
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Re: Gear drive Hydraulics

Post by BigMike »

Mess?......are freakin kidding me?......I can see floor, LOTS of floor!

PTWannaHave
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Re: Gear drive Hydraulics

Post by PTWannaHave »

Tim,

You may be interested in the 'Hydraulic Pump and Undercarriage Assembly' part/assembly of the 190-825-101 hydraulic tiller...

Ciao,
PTWannaHave

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