Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post your custom tools or how to information here (caption your photo's) and we'll move any that are good to archive, into the How To section of the manuals.
Forum rules
This section is reserved for semi detailed posts describing how you made a custom tool, or a detailed procedure for repairing a certain assembly of a tractor. Pictures are pretty much required
Posts in this section now have to be approved before they become visible.
If your looking for help repairing something please post in the shooting the breeze or the forum that pertains to your question.
PTWannaHave
Posts: 295
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:39 pm
First and Last Name: Ben Michaud
Location: Richmond, Ontario

Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by PTWannaHave »

Hello all,

I have separated the gear rear end of a 122 from the frame. The unit is very dirty and caked with oily residue; it obviously leaks from probably several place, including the creeper.

Now that I have good access to the tranny, can anyone suggest an ordered list of steps (like a recipe) of things to check/test to find out how good/bad the unit is, beyond all new gaskets at all mating surfaces? I suppose I'll need some new o-rings somewhere...?!

Thank-you in advance,
PTWannaHave

wdeturck

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by wdeturck »

http://www.paigetractorsparts.com/pages ... 0018600009
Is the 122 Transmission Parts List. Replace all the seals and gaskets
http://www.paigetractorsparts.com/pages ... 0018600012
then go to the creeper page and replace those gaskets and seals.

PTWannaHave
Posts: 295
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:39 pm
First and Last Name: Ben Michaud
Location: Richmond, Ontario

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by PTWannaHave »

Thanks; too bad all gaskets cannot be purchased as a kit...

I've taken more apart and will post pics with a few more questions later...

Bye for now,
PTWannaHave

PTWannaHave
Posts: 295
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:39 pm
First and Last Name: Ben Michaud
Location: Richmond, Ontario

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by PTWannaHave »

IMGP4390.JPG
OK; two issues spotted by my inexperienced eye:

1) The shaft of the small gear at the top ('reduction drive shaft'?) is fairly loose inside what appears to be a pressed-in bearing. That does not seem normal; how is it fixed?

I'm guessing a tractor without a creeper drive would not have a visible gear there, just a shaft stub... That reduction drive shaft appears to be hollow, and supported by a stub shaft inside at one end, and by the bearing in the middle.

2) The large diameter gear is also a little loose - I can jiggle that bolt a little. (The bolt and gear move together.) Not as loose as the top one, but I would've thought it needed to be unwavering...

Thank-you in advance for your insight!
PTWannaHave

PTWannaHave
Posts: 295
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:39 pm
First and Last Name: Ben Michaud
Location: Richmond, Ontario

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by PTWannaHave »

Any thoughts on this, so that I can wrench on it this weekend (and not unknowingly shoot myself in the foot)?

Since the unit is so dirty with a thick oily grime almost everywhere, I will most likely change most of the gaskets at mating surfaces. It's very difficult to tell which gaskets are leaking and which ones aren't... (The gasket for the gear shifter looks pretty clean though, so I was thinking of leaving that alone.)

It seems that the only thing keeping an oil leak from the internal wet brake is a single o-ring... Any tips on changing that? Are o-rings also what prevents leaks from the creeper shift lever? (I have the latter all cleaned up (not disassembled), but cannot see o-rings there...)

As you can see in the pic, there are two large bolts on the housing on either side of the brake. What are they for...?

Thank-you in advance,
PTWannaHave

mrbrown
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:04 am
First and Last Name: Mike Brown
Location: cambridge, OH

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by mrbrown »

Hi PT, Find a torque value for that size bolt in that big gear. Lock trans in 2 gears and tighten. If you really want to clean it out, pull the axels then the axel tubes, that where all the gunk collects at. Mike

User avatar
Farmallgray
Posts: 1021
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:39 am
First and Last Name: Todd Markle
Location: Spring Mills, Pa

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by Farmallgray »

Niether the input pinion nor the top trans shaft should have any movement. If they do the bearings are probably shot.

Those bolts along with two more behind the big gear hold the reduction housing on.
See my IH, Cub Cadet and tractor pulling youtube videos;
http://www.youtube.com/user/farmallgray

PTWannaHave
Posts: 295
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:39 pm
First and Last Name: Ben Michaud
Location: Richmond, Ontario

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by PTWannaHave »

OK thanks for the input! It looks like I'm into a major disassembly as my 1st project with a gear tractor... Trial by fire I guess. I'll keep my progress posted for anyone else's benefit.

Cheers,
PTWannaHave

User avatar
Farmallgray
Posts: 1021
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:39 am
First and Last Name: Todd Markle
Location: Spring Mills, Pa

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by Farmallgray »

I have worked on quite a few of them mostly modifying them for tractor pulling. A stock rebuild is pretty straightforward. It helps if you download the manual and have that handy when you are working on them.
See my IH, Cub Cadet and tractor pulling youtube videos;
http://www.youtube.com/user/farmallgray

PTWannaHave
Posts: 295
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:39 pm
First and Last Name: Ben Michaud
Location: Richmond, Ontario

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by PTWannaHave »

Being a newb, and the unit being so covered in grime, I had not spotted that a whole gear reduction housing was a separate piece at the front...!

Got the brake lever, reduction gear and housing, and brake disc off. The housing is now on the bench awaiting the 'drive gear/shaft' removal (to replace the seal), and removal/cleaning of the 'brake caliper'.

Those internal brake parts appear seized... Can I take the pushrod and hammer it against the ball to push the retainer out? What's the best way to remove the pad (liner) on the other side?

Bye for now,
PTWannaHave

User avatar
Farmallgray
Posts: 1021
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:39 am
First and Last Name: Todd Markle
Location: Spring Mills, Pa

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by Farmallgray »

I don't think there is room to push it all the way through. I would stand it up and soak the plunger good with PB blaster then try gently prying it towards the front. Be careful not to damage the lining pucks.They usually aren't as tight as they might seem because there was usually some fluid seeped past the o ring and kept them from rusting real bad. I would just leave the inner puck in place unless it needs replaced.
See my IH, Cub Cadet and tractor pulling youtube videos;
http://www.youtube.com/user/farmallgray

PTWannaHave
Posts: 295
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:39 pm
First and Last Name: Ben Michaud
Location: Richmond, Ontario

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by PTWannaHave »

OK, the 'brake ball' is flooded with PB Blaster in its hole for now... I think I'll need to buy a bearing separator to use as a puller to remove the reduction drive shaft assembly...

I pulled off the axles & tubes; not a pretty sight... Water, oil, and accumulated crap. There is some scoring on the axles where they turned in the seal... I hope some emery cloth and new seals will be adequate... Any tips on removing those seals?

The two shafts (behind the large reduction gear) are loose and will need new bearings (on the front at least). The top one is really bad; the bottom one moves around by about a max. of 1/32. It looks like those bearings will come off relatively easy. (I hope...!)

Bye for now,
PTWannaHave

PTWannaHave
Posts: 295
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:39 pm
First and Last Name: Ben Michaud
Location: Richmond, Ontario

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by PTWannaHave »

Bearing Separator Kit was on sale 1/2 price this week, and the timing was perfect! Got the reduction drive shaft assembly out. To say things were worn out would be a major understatement... The ball bearing, seal & needle bearing are SHOT, with pieces missing... :cry: The outer race of the needle bearing is still pressed in; any ideas on getting that out without a press?

The brake retainer came out, but the ball inside is still not budging. Maybe that's not so bad if it never does...? The brake liner (pad) had to be chiselled out, and I expect the same for the other liner...

Slow, but progress nonetheless, and lots of on-the-job-self-learning!

Cheers,
PTWannaHave

PTWannaHave
Posts: 295
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:39 pm
First and Last Name: Ben Michaud
Location: Richmond, Ontario

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by PTWannaHave »

puller jig 01
puller jig 01
puller jig 02
puller jig 02
countershaft/pinion bearing
countershaft/pinion bearing
The first two pics are my contraption to remove what's left of the outer race of a needle bearing...

The third pic is representative of the state of this transmission... :( All bearings/seals are in that kinda shape or worse...!! Quite a challenge for my 1st gear tranny project!

On the bright side, all the gear teeth and splines look pretty good; the bearings seem to have absorbed all the abuse/neglect/whatever. The tractor was rough, but ran far better than these internals would lead you to believe!!??
PTWannaHave

mrbrown
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:04 am
First and Last Name: Mike Brown
Location: cambridge, OH

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by mrbrown »

Good job, do you have a place local to buy parts up there? Mike

PTWannaHave
Posts: 295
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:39 pm
First and Last Name: Ben Michaud
Location: Richmond, Ontario

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by PTWannaHave »

Thanks Mike.

There is a Cub dealer here who will get whatever I want if his computer tells him it's available in North America from MTD-CC.

For this transmission though, I may be better off to match everything (except gaskets) at an industrial bearing shop. If the gaskets (which probably do not come as a set) prove too expensive from Cub, then I would use make-a-gasket (tube) on most metal mating surfaces.

Now I have to figure out how to take that pinion bearing out...
PTWannaHave

mrbrown
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:04 am
First and Last Name: Mike Brown
Location: cambridge, OH

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by mrbrown »

Yes a bearing shop should be cheaper. Some gaskets i have been able to save. That gasket between the case and reduction housing is needed for correct spacing of mounting holes. Other places i used the best black gasket maker. Try looking at some pulling sites for gaskets. Mike

User avatar
Dave C
Web Developer
Posts: 1012
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:12 am
First and Last Name: David Chester
Location: Wallingford, CT

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by Dave C »

I have rebuilt quite a few transmissions and never purchased new bearings! but there is always one here and there i saposse that got low on fluid and kept running. You need qty 2 CR 9878 seals for the axles... the seal for the input shaft needs to be purchased from cub cadet if i recall correctly as it cannot be had from a auto parts or bearing distributer. IIRC the width of the seal is important as it plays into keeping the shaft from moving laterally in the case.
I got tired of buying gaskets and started making my own. NAPA has 3 thicknesses of gasket material by the foot if i recall. No cub cadet doesnt sell them as a set. If it was me and i didnt like the bearings i would probably try to find a used set.
I generally find a socket just slightly smaller than the bearing and a long extension and drive them out...
Keep in mind that if you change any bearings on the pinion shaft or the carrier tappered bearings you will effect the backlash etc on the gears. the pinion shaft bearings prob wont bother t much but the tapered bearings and races will... and will effect your preload etc.
I certainly hope you kept track of which carrier bearing housing and shims were on which side!

Oh... the rear cover gasket can be found at steiner tractor for half of cub cadets price. part number IHS180
they also sell gasket material by the foot.
Trying to save cubs... one at a time.......

PTWannaHave
Posts: 295
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:39 pm
First and Last Name: Ben Michaud
Location: Richmond, Ontario

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by PTWannaHave »

Thank-you both for the info!

Good point (and I NEVER would've thought about that!) on the case-to-reduction housing gasket Mike...

I did keep track of the sides for the carriers, Dave. I was expecting three shims per side (as per parts manual), but I think one side has one shim and the other side has four shims... I was going to make sure I have the correct three shims/side. Do these shims affect gear backlash...?

Bye for now,
PTWannaHave

User avatar
Farmallgray
Posts: 1021
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:39 am
First and Last Name: Todd Markle
Location: Spring Mills, Pa

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by Farmallgray »

The shims come in different thicknesses. And yes the shims are to adjust the carrier bearing preload and the backlash.
See my IH, Cub Cadet and tractor pulling youtube videos;
http://www.youtube.com/user/farmallgray

User avatar
Dave C
Web Developer
Posts: 1012
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:12 am
First and Last Name: David Chester
Location: Wallingford, CT

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by Dave C »

If you dont change the tapered roller bearings and races then put the carriers and shims back exactally as they came out. The total shims adjust the preload and where they are left to right adjust the backlash. otherwise you will have one loud trans!
Trying to save cubs... one at a time.......

PTWannaHave
Posts: 295
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:39 pm
First and Last Name: Ben Michaud
Location: Richmond, Ontario

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by PTWannaHave »

Unfortunately, the tapered roller bearing for the carriers are also finished. Outer races have pitting and corrosion... :(

I guess I'm going to learn all about Preloading and Lashing... Far more than what I expected, and I hope not too far out of my abilities... Has to be done at this point.

Since the tranny housings are now going to be bare, I think I will get them acid washed along with the engine block I'm working on...

Ciao,
PTWannaHave

User avatar
Farmallgray
Posts: 1021
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:39 am
First and Last Name: Todd Markle
Location: Spring Mills, Pa

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by Farmallgray »

Make sure the acid wash doesn't remove the red coating from the inside. Otherwise it might leak oil. You will need a dial indicator to check the backlash and some sort of pull scale to check the bearing preload. You will probably also need to check the ring & pinion tooth mesh if you are replacing the pinion bearings.

Here is a pic I took when checking the tooth pattern on my son's puller;
Attachments
IMG_4209.JPG
See my IH, Cub Cadet and tractor pulling youtube videos;
http://www.youtube.com/user/farmallgray

PTWannaHave
Posts: 295
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:39 pm
First and Last Name: Ben Michaud
Location: Richmond, Ontario

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by PTWannaHave »

Thanks for the heads-up on the red coating... I wasn't really sure why it's there. Hand wash with paint thinner (with gloves) it is then.

Thanks for the pic; I'm sure it'll come in handy later!
PTWannaHave

User avatar
Dave C
Web Developer
Posts: 1012
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:12 am
First and Last Name: David Chester
Location: Wallingford, CT

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by Dave C »

Your gonna have a potential issue with reshimming if you dont have handfull of shims handy to play with. I keep every one from parted transmissions just for this problem. If i recall correctly the thinner ones are the ones harder to come by. i got a bunch of like 030 ones i think.
For the preload i use a fish scale! haha it works!
Trying to save cubs... one at a time.......

PTWannaHave
Posts: 295
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:39 pm
First and Last Name: Ben Michaud
Location: Richmond, Ontario

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by PTWannaHave »

shifter rods
shifter rods
Those are my shifter rods. Notice how one is way more worn than the other (where it slides over the poppet). How bad does it have to be before they get replaced? I was thinking of just switching the two around when reinstalling...

Also, I noticed some play in the two sliding gears of the main shaft. There's a few degrees of rotational movement on the shaft. (I would estimate 15-30 seconds on a clock.) It looks like about 1/64 to 1/32 of space between the meshing splines. Again, how much is too much? (Happily, the gears on the countershaft (pinion shaft) are still a good tight enough fit.) I'm afraid a new main shaft and sliding gears might be quite expensive, if even available...

Thank-you in advance,
PTWannaHave

PTWannaHave
Posts: 295
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:39 pm
First and Last Name: Ben Michaud
Location: Richmond, Ontario

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by PTWannaHave »

special bearings
special bearings
OK; got all required bearings and seals from local Bearing House for about $130., minus the two in the pic. The one on the left (split inner race) is for the main shaft (with the sliding gears) and goes for about $100. The one on the right is for the countershaft, deep in the bowel of the tranny, right next to the pinion gear. It sells for about $65. (I now know that the latter is a special version of a regular roller bearing.)

Does anyone know the importance of these expensive versions over their regular counterparts?!

(A regular ball bearing for the main shaft would be $15. [Note: prices in Canada; always more expensive than US; brand names are SKF or Timken.])

I wanted to get opinions from more experienced people before I dish out that kind of money on two bearings... (I also find it odd that the main shaft is held by a really expensive bearing at the front, and a cheap needle bearing at the back...!)

Thank-you in advance,
PTWannaHave

User avatar
Dave C
Web Developer
Posts: 1012
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:12 am
First and Last Name: David Chester
Location: Wallingford, CT

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by Dave C »

Cub cadet lists that top shaft bearing for 22 bucks... i dont recall anything special about it.

I dont beleive you can swap those shift rails... 99 percent sure they are left and right or 1st rev and 2nd 3rd
I dont think i have ever seen rails worn that bad! Whoever owned that tractor sure got their monies worth!
If it were me i would replace those rails.... and it sounds like some of the gears where they mesh with the spines are worn badly. You really need a donor transmission.

Also on that "cheap" needle bearing... there should be a hole in the bearing that lines up with a hole in the case from an oil galley. seems to me there is a version of that brg that people have been getting without the hole.
I recall Geezer grinding a hole in one a while back.

dave
Trying to save cubs... one at a time.......

User avatar
Farmallgray
Posts: 1021
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:39 am
First and Last Name: Todd Markle
Location: Spring Mills, Pa

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by Farmallgray »

The rear pinion bearing is special because the inner race has to float in the rollers. This allows the front bearing to locate the pinion front to rear.
Dave is right about the shift rails. Although you could weld them up and file them back down.
See my IH, Cub Cadet and tractor pulling youtube videos;
http://www.youtube.com/user/farmallgray

PTWannaHave
Posts: 295
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:39 pm
First and Last Name: Ben Michaud
Location: Richmond, Ontario

Re: Gear transmission evaluation for rebuild

Post by PTWannaHave »

OK, well, some updates...

Shifter Rods
Yup, upon closer inspection, they are indeed different and not interchangeable. They are NLA from Cub, which means weld-up and file down, or have new one made at machine shop. (Should not be a difficult project for a machinist...)

Main Shaft (a.k.a. Top Shaft) Bearings
- The replacement part for the front bearing I pulled off (split inner race) is now a 'regular' bearing, $15. That saves me $85! :)
- I cleaned out the 3/16" hole in the housing for the matching oil hole in the rear needle bearing. It was plugged solid...

Counter Shaft (a.k.a. Bottom Shaft) Bearings
Thanks to FarmAllGray for the explanation about the rear bearing.

Reduction Drive Shaft Bearings
(The small shaft hooked up to the drive shaft, at the very top of the tranny.)

I have appropriate ball and needle bearings. However, I'm really not sure how these bearings receive adequate lubrification?! These hold a shaft that spins as fast as the driveshaft, at the highest point away from gear oil, and the splash from the large reduction gear would not seem to be enough...??! (It's little wonder to me that the ball bearing was worn, and the rear needle bearing completely trashed...) I was thinking of buying a needle bearing that is 1/4" deeper than spec, and putting a grease zerk in the back cover... (I could make it a point to get to it once a year.)

Main Shaft (with sliding gears)
- Not looking good to resolve the amount of play between gear & shaft splines... Will have to see if aftermarket pullers make replacement parts at a reasonable price...
- Even if I do keep these worn parts, the rear of the shaft (that goes into a needle bearing) is so badly worn that it has to be machined down and matched to another bearing, or machined down and sleeved to original spec.

I'm so far in now, that I might as well make a 'as best as can be rebuild with what I've got'... It's proving to be a great learning experience. :roll:

Bye for now,
PTWannaHave

Post Reply