New Guy, 108 Rebuild

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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby Merk » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:23 pm

redvettemike wrote:
Klapatta wrote:Mike, your doing a great job!
Go to our documents and manuals section located toward the upper left hand corner of the home page just under the header logo.
Left click to open.
Left clock on 86- 1650 Service manual Part 1.
Left click download to open.
Scroll down to page 2-24.
It will tell you there that the clutch release lever must have .050 clearance.
Adjust lower nut as necessary at clutch fork bottom.
I think that your adjustment is out of spec.


ken: Thanks much. Can you (or anyone) advise if the drive shaft going back to the transmission should be turning all of the time (with the clutch engaged or not engaged). Tks, Mike

The drive shaft should not be turning when the clutch is not engaged.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby Klapatta » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:10 pm

Yes the area Dale mentioned could well be enough to cause a drag problem. There may well be over spray on the inside the bushing as well.
This area should be clean and bright.
IMG_6605.JPG

It may well wear itself off with some time.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby JMotuzick » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:55 pm

Mike
The drive shaft should not spin when the pedal is locked down. Not to bash your work but I like to go through every part on a resto before I reassemble. You could have replaced parts very easy now you might need to pull the engine back out of course the deck needs to come off to even adjust the clutch. Slow down a bit and be more through as you go. Either way keep up the good work! It looks great!
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby redvettemike » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:53 am

JMotuzick wrote:Mike
The drive shaft should not spin when the pedal is locked down. Not to bash your work but I like to go through every part on a resto before I reassemble. You could have replaced parts very easy now you might need to pull the engine back out of course the deck needs to come off to even adjust the clutch. Slow down a bit and be more through as you go. Either way keep up the good work! It looks great!


Joe: Your words ring true. We will try to adjust the clutch some and hope the engine does not have to come back out. We put a new throw out bearing and new spring down there along with a new clutch disc. Something is amiss as it sometimes grinds going into gear. Tks

Mike
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby Tom Scott » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:51 am

It's grinding because the driveshaft is turning. Sounds like the paint overspray and adjustment is where you need to be looking.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby redvettemike » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:35 am

Tom Scott wrote:It's grinding because the driveshaft is turning. Sounds like the paint overspray and adjustment is where you need to be looking.


Tom: I see. The metal disc that the clutch disc engages needs to be clear of paint. Right? We can pull the engine and do that if that is needed. tks, Live and learn.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby cholloway » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:20 am

Mike, the Southern Cub Cadet Gang was something started by longtime member Jim Steele (jswordy) who lives in Tenn.
He had a bunch of these buttons made up and if you attended a show in his area where he was displaying his Cub, he'd
give you a button and you would become a member of "the gang".
This goes way back to the original IH Registry site.
No meetings. No dues. Just a few of us back then. That's all it is.
Official Member SCCG
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby redvettemike » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:06 am

We have had a problem with the clutch on this 108. We had it put together wrong at first but think now we have it correct. I am enclosing some photos of the clutch shaft. You fine folks can advise if it is assembled correctly or not. The photos show that the 'teaser spring' is mashed flat. We think it should not be flat like that. The clutch disc is tight up against clutch plates. it likely should have some play in it. The new throw out bearing is longer than the old: 1.103" v approx. .985. The Ebay guy that sold us the new throw out bearing (a good guy who has offered to take it back) says this is the only replacement and he has sold to many others with no problem. It looks to be a problem for us The new throw out bearing replaces the seized old one. I guess we could have the new bearing machined some to shorten it? Any guidance is appreciated.
Mike
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby Merk » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:00 pm

Does your driveshaft have any wear in the area my finger is pointing? This area is where the throw out bearing goes.
clutch021.JPG

Replace if it shows any wear. Long run you will glad you did.

It looks like you are missing a spacer (# 20) per the Cub Cadet parts lookup
http://www.cubcadet.com/webapp/wcs/stor ... 0012400012
The parts look up has the compression spring (# 4) and spacer (# 20) backwards.

It looks like the compression spring (# 2 ) in a bind when you have the clutch pedal pushed in. I would the pin back the overall length difference of the 2 throw out bearings. (example-new throw out is .5 longer-move pin location back .5)
I would use a 2 piece split collar to hold the spring in place.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby redvettemike » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:30 pm

Merk wrote:Does your driveshaft have any wear in the area my finger is pointing? This area is where the throw out bearing goes.
clutch021.JPG

Replace if it shows any wear. Long run you will glad you did.

It looks like you are missing a spacer (# 20) per the Cub Cadet parts lookup
http://www.cubcadet.com/webapp/wcs/stor ... 0012400012
The parts look up has the compression spring (# 4) and spacer (# 20) backwards.

It looks like the compression spring (# 2 ) in a bind when you have the clutch pedal pushed in. I would the pin back the overall length difference of the 2 throw out bearings. (example-new throw out is .5 longer-move pin location back .5)
I would use a 2 piece split collar to hold the spring in place.


Dale: Thanks for the response. We have come to the same conclusion and will move the #2 compression spring back the approx. .118" that is the difference in the two throw out bearings. There is a spacer (ours is a washer; wrong?) between the teaser spring and the clutch plate. The drive/clutch shaft has very little wear on it and we think will work ok given some more clearance. I'll advise how we come out. I am not sure what a 'split collar' looks like but will go to the hardware store to see.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby Merk » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:35 pm

McMaster-Carr calls the 2 piece split collar a 2 piece shaft collar.
https://www.mcmaster.com/#shaft-collars/=1azyjmf

I don't use a pin through the driveshaft to hold big spring in place. I've been using the 2 piece shaft collar in any clutch I rebuild unless the customer wants a pin.
The drilled hole in the driveshaft is a weak spot.

The McMaster-Carr part number 6436K15.

https://www.mcmaster.com/#6436k15/=1azyn2h

I usually use 2 shaft collars. Main reason is usually install a heavier compression spring and don't want them to move.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby Klapatta » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:17 pm

Thousands of machines were never factory fitted with the item #20 teaser spring spacer. It did not come along until the middle 1970'S when it was offered as a retrofit item to prevent teaser spring failure. Even my circa 1991 TC-113 manual does not list it.
Your also missing the clutch driving disc springs although that is not causing the issue, they were used to control clutch disc chatter. That part number is 732-3018. Normally two are used. refer to image for placement and location.
DSCN1778.JPG

If you are handy around a lathe the spacer can be fabricated. Here's what I came up with and it works great.
DSCN1744.JPG

DSCN1784.JPG
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby Merk » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:33 pm

Klapatta wrote:Thousands of machines were never factory fitted with the item #20 teaser spring spacer. It did not come along until the middle 1970'S when it was offered as a retrofit item to prevent teaser spring failure. Even my circa 1991 TC-113 manual does not list it.
Your also missing the clutch driving disc springs although that is not causing the issue, they were used to control clutch disc chatter. That part number is 732-3018. Normally two are used. refer to image for placement and location.
DSCN1778.JPG

If you are handy around a lathe the spacer can be fabricated. Here's what I came up with and it works great.
DSCN1744.JPG

DSCN1784.JPG


All the wide frame clutch assemblies that I work on had the spacer. The purpose was prevent teaser spring failure as Ken stated.

I never had had any luck using clutch disc springs. They can hold clutch disc against the pressure plate can keep the driveshaft moving.
The disc looks to be made out Kevlar material. They are usually a little thicker than the Cub Cadet disc.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby Klapatta » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:27 pm

Dale, you are spot on correct, I stand corrected. There does seem to be too much crush on the main spring as well. The retrofit spacer I had mentioned applied to narrow frame applications.
The modification shown was of my own design as an improvement to help prevent teaser spring failure on those models. After breaking two in three years it became time to find a better way.
I downloaded the GSS-1464 service manual. An exploded view of the shaft assembly is clearly provided on page 2-23 (page 36.) and should look like as shown.
Hope this helps.
DSCN7599.JPG

DSCN7601.JPG


It all comes back to me now. That collar cannot be used on a narrow frame. I tried. Then I went over to plan B ;)
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby redvettemike » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:07 am

We got a color and have installed that. We will get back in the machine this next week and see if that will solve the issue. Thanks.
Mike
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby Klapatta » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:44 pm

Mike, your getting closer but your still missing the teaser spring spacer collar.
It's circled as item 7 in the image. This is what prevents the teaser spring from getting mashed as you described.
The part number according to the Cub Cadet parts site is 911-3040 and it costs $13.71.
DSCN7601.JPG

Disregard item 5 as it is not used in your application.
Also, I'd strongly urge replacing the teaser spring, it's a common failure point especially when they get over compressed as yours has.
When this spring fails it will cause an extremely jerky clutch action.
It is part number 732-3017 and for the five bucks it's worth the peace of mind to replace it.

The locking collars that Merk mentions are of a split design and have far more clamping strength than a collar with just a set screw, I have my doubts with that type staying in place. Here's what it looks like-
6436k150l.gif

It's been said many times that half of all gear drive Cubs that have been parked behind the shed are because of clutch issues, I go along with that.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby redvettemike » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:40 pm

Kenneth: Tks for the response. I'll get the parts that you are talking about. The old spring had broken so this is a replacement. But I'll do exactly as you say.
Tks.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby Merk » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:47 pm

Klapatta wrote:Mike, your getting closer but your still missing the teaser spring spacer collar.
It's circled as item 7 in the image. This is what prevents the teaser spring from getting mashed as you described.
The part number according to the Cub Cadet parts site is 911-3040 and it costs $13.71.
DSCN7601.JPG

Disregard item 5 as it is not used in your application.
Also, I'd strongly urge replacing the teaser spring, it's a common failure point especially when they get over compressed as yours has.
When this spring fails it will cause an extremely jerky clutch action.
It is part number 732-3017 and for the five bucks it's worth the peace of mind to replace it.

The locking collars that Merk mentions are of a split design and have far more clamping strength than a collar with just a set screw, I have my doubts with that type staying in place. Here's what it looks like-
6436k150l.gif

It's been said many times that half of all gear drive Cubs that have been parked behind the shed are because of clutch issues, I go along with that.


I would do what Ken suggested to do.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby redvettemike » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:41 am

Had the local JD dealership work on the JD345. Got some new gage wheels for Christmas. Going to put the clutch and drive shaft back in the 108 today or tomorrow. I got the parts (teaser spring and spacer) as directed. A '55 Tbird that we rebuilt the engine on (had 0-zero-oil pressure).
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby BigMike » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:56 pm

Good deal on the 108!
My guess on the Thunder Chicken is a missing oil galley plug.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby DaveKamp » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:56 pm

Ken said: "It's been said many times that half of all gear drive Cubs that have been parked behind the shed are because of clutch issues, I go along with that."

Kinda obvious... that if you say it, then that statement is true, right? :lol:

I'll give that statement some merit though- and not just for clutch issues... also for CROSSPIN couplers on shafts. The crosspin seems like a great idea, but in the long run, once there's slop in there, it becomes a shear-pin and NOBODY (except us gearheads) is inclined to go in there to fix it.

Of course... it happens on hydrostats, too...

driveshaft.jpg

...except for mine... :D
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