New Guy, 108 Rebuild

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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby Merk » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:23 pm

redvettemike wrote:
Klapatta wrote:Mike, your doing a great job!
Go to our documents and manuals section located toward the upper left hand corner of the home page just under the header logo.
Left click to open.
Left clock on 86- 1650 Service manual Part 1.
Left click download to open.
Scroll down to page 2-24.
It will tell you there that the clutch release lever must have .050 clearance.
Adjust lower nut as necessary at clutch fork bottom.
I think that your adjustment is out of spec.


ken: Thanks much. Can you (or anyone) advise if the drive shaft going back to the transmission should be turning all of the time (with the clutch engaged or not engaged). Tks, Mike

The drive shaft should not be turning when the clutch is not engaged.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby Klapatta » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:10 pm

Yes the area Dale mentioned could well be enough to cause a drag problem. There may well be over spray on the inside the bushing as well.
This area should be clean and bright.
IMG_6605.JPG

It may well wear itself off with some time.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby JMotuzick » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:55 pm

Mike
The drive shaft should not spin when the pedal is locked down. Not to bash your work but I like to go through every part on a resto before I reassemble. You could have replaced parts very easy now you might need to pull the engine back out of course the deck needs to come off to even adjust the clutch. Slow down a bit and be more through as you go. Either way keep up the good work! It looks great!
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby redvettemike » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:53 am

JMotuzick wrote:Mike
The drive shaft should not spin when the pedal is locked down. Not to bash your work but I like to go through every part on a resto before I reassemble. You could have replaced parts very easy now you might need to pull the engine back out of course the deck needs to come off to even adjust the clutch. Slow down a bit and be more through as you go. Either way keep up the good work! It looks great!


Joe: Your words ring true. We will try to adjust the clutch some and hope the engine does not have to come back out. We put a new throw out bearing and new spring down there along with a new clutch disc. Something is amiss as it sometimes grinds going into gear. Tks

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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby Tom Scott » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:51 am

It's grinding because the driveshaft is turning. Sounds like the paint overspray and adjustment is where you need to be looking.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby redvettemike » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:35 am

Tom Scott wrote:It's grinding because the driveshaft is turning. Sounds like the paint overspray and adjustment is where you need to be looking.


Tom: I see. The metal disc that the clutch disc engages needs to be clear of paint. Right? We can pull the engine and do that if that is needed. tks, Live and learn.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby cholloway » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:20 am

Mike, the Southern Cub Cadet Gang was something started by longtime member Jim Steele (jswordy) who lives in Tenn.
He had a bunch of these buttons made up and if you attended a show in his area where he was displaying his Cub, he'd
give you a button and you would become a member of "the gang".
This goes way back to the original IH Registry site.
No meetings. No dues. Just a few of us back then. That's all it is.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby redvettemike » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:06 am

We have had a problem with the clutch on this 108. We had it put together wrong at first but think now we have it correct. I am enclosing some photos of the clutch shaft. You fine folks can advise if it is assembled correctly or not. The photos show that the 'teaser spring' is mashed flat. We think it should not be flat like that. The clutch disc is tight up against clutch plates. it likely should have some play in it. The new throw out bearing is longer than the old: 1.103" v approx. .985. The Ebay guy that sold us the new throw out bearing (a good guy who has offered to take it back) says this is the only replacement and he has sold to many others with no problem. It looks to be a problem for us The new throw out bearing replaces the seized old one. I guess we could have the new bearing machined some to shorten it? Any guidance is appreciated.
Mike
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby Merk » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:00 pm

Does your driveshaft have any wear in the area my finger is pointing? This area is where the throw out bearing goes.
clutch021.JPG

Replace if it shows any wear. Long run you will glad you did.

It looks like you are missing a spacer (# 20) per the Cub Cadet parts lookup
http://www.cubcadet.com/webapp/wcs/stor ... 0012400012
The parts look up has the compression spring (# 4) and spacer (# 20) backwards.

It looks like the compression spring (# 2 ) in a bind when you have the clutch pedal pushed in. I would the pin back the overall length difference of the 2 throw out bearings. (example-new throw out is .5 longer-move pin location back .5)
I would use a 2 piece split collar to hold the spring in place.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby redvettemike » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:30 pm

Merk wrote:Does your driveshaft have any wear in the area my finger is pointing? This area is where the throw out bearing goes.
clutch021.JPG

Replace if it shows any wear. Long run you will glad you did.

It looks like you are missing a spacer (# 20) per the Cub Cadet parts lookup
http://www.cubcadet.com/webapp/wcs/stor ... 0012400012
The parts look up has the compression spring (# 4) and spacer (# 20) backwards.

It looks like the compression spring (# 2 ) in a bind when you have the clutch pedal pushed in. I would the pin back the overall length difference of the 2 throw out bearings. (example-new throw out is .5 longer-move pin location back .5)
I would use a 2 piece split collar to hold the spring in place.


Dale: Thanks for the response. We have come to the same conclusion and will move the #2 compression spring back the approx. .118" that is the difference in the two throw out bearings. There is a spacer (ours is a washer; wrong?) between the teaser spring and the clutch plate. The drive/clutch shaft has very little wear on it and we think will work ok given some more clearance. I'll advise how we come out. I am not sure what a 'split collar' looks like but will go to the hardware store to see.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby Merk » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:35 pm

McMaster-Carr calls the 2 piece split collar a 2 piece shaft collar.
https://www.mcmaster.com/#shaft-collars/=1azyjmf

I don't use a pin through the driveshaft to hold big spring in place. I've been using the 2 piece shaft collar in any clutch I rebuild unless the customer wants a pin.
The drilled hole in the driveshaft is a weak spot.

The McMaster-Carr part number 6436K15.

https://www.mcmaster.com/#6436k15/=1azyn2h

I usually use 2 shaft collars. Main reason is usually install a heavier compression spring and don't want them to move.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby Klapatta » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:17 pm

Thousands of machines were never factory fitted with the item #20 teaser spring spacer. It did not come along until the middle 1970'S when it was offered as a retrofit item to prevent teaser spring failure. Even my circa 1991 TC-113 manual does not list it.
Your also missing the clutch driving disc springs although that is not causing the issue, they were used to control clutch disc chatter. That part number is 732-3018. Normally two are used. refer to image for placement and location.
DSCN1778.JPG

If you are handy around a lathe the spacer can be fabricated. Here's what I came up with and it works great.
DSCN1744.JPG

DSCN1784.JPG
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby Merk » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:33 pm

Klapatta wrote:Thousands of machines were never factory fitted with the item #20 teaser spring spacer. It did not come along until the middle 1970'S when it was offered as a retrofit item to prevent teaser spring failure. Even my circa 1991 TC-113 manual does not list it.
Your also missing the clutch driving disc springs although that is not causing the issue, they were used to control clutch disc chatter. That part number is 732-3018. Normally two are used. refer to image for placement and location.
DSCN1778.JPG

If you are handy around a lathe the spacer can be fabricated. Here's what I came up with and it works great.
DSCN1744.JPG

DSCN1784.JPG


All the wide frame clutch assemblies that I work on had the spacer. The purpose was prevent teaser spring failure as Ken stated.

I never had had any luck using clutch disc springs. They can hold clutch disc against the pressure plate can keep the driveshaft moving.
The disc looks to be made out Kevlar material. They are usually a little thicker than the Cub Cadet disc.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby Klapatta » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:27 pm

Dale, you are spot on correct, I stand corrected. There does seem to be too much crush on the main spring as well. The retrofit spacer I had mentioned applied to narrow frame applications.
The modification shown was of my own design as an improvement to help prevent teaser spring failure on those models. After breaking two in three years it became time to find a better way.
I downloaded the GSS-1464 service manual. An exploded view of the shaft assembly is clearly provided on page 2-23 (page 36.) and should look like as shown.
Hope this helps.
DSCN7599.JPG

DSCN7601.JPG


It all comes back to me now. That collar cannot be used on a narrow frame. I tried. Then I went over to plan B ;)
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby redvettemike » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:07 am

We got a color and have installed that. We will get back in the machine this next week and see if that will solve the issue. Thanks.
Mike
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby Klapatta » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:44 pm

Mike, your getting closer but your still missing the teaser spring spacer collar.
It's circled as item 7 in the image. This is what prevents the teaser spring from getting mashed as you described.
The part number according to the Cub Cadet parts site is 911-3040 and it costs $13.71.
DSCN7601.JPG

Disregard item 5 as it is not used in your application.
Also, I'd strongly urge replacing the teaser spring, it's a common failure point especially when they get over compressed as yours has.
When this spring fails it will cause an extremely jerky clutch action.
It is part number 732-3017 and for the five bucks it's worth the peace of mind to replace it.

The locking collars that Merk mentions are of a split design and have far more clamping strength than a collar with just a set screw, I have my doubts with that type staying in place. Here's what it looks like-
6436k150l.gif

It's been said many times that half of all gear drive Cubs that have been parked behind the shed are because of clutch issues, I go along with that.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby redvettemike » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:40 pm

Kenneth: Tks for the response. I'll get the parts that you are talking about. The old spring had broken so this is a replacement. But I'll do exactly as you say.
Tks.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby Merk » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:47 pm

Klapatta wrote:Mike, your getting closer but your still missing the teaser spring spacer collar.
It's circled as item 7 in the image. This is what prevents the teaser spring from getting mashed as you described.
The part number according to the Cub Cadet parts site is 911-3040 and it costs $13.71.
DSCN7601.JPG

Disregard item 5 as it is not used in your application.
Also, I'd strongly urge replacing the teaser spring, it's a common failure point especially when they get over compressed as yours has.
When this spring fails it will cause an extremely jerky clutch action.
It is part number 732-3017 and for the five bucks it's worth the peace of mind to replace it.

The locking collars that Merk mentions are of a split design and have far more clamping strength than a collar with just a set screw, I have my doubts with that type staying in place. Here's what it looks like-
6436k150l.gif

It's been said many times that half of all gear drive Cubs that have been parked behind the shed are because of clutch issues, I go along with that.


I would do what Ken suggested to do.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby redvettemike » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:41 am

Had the local JD dealership work on the JD345. Got some new gage wheels for Christmas. Going to put the clutch and drive shaft back in the 108 today or tomorrow. I got the parts (teaser spring and spacer) as directed. A '55 Tbird that we rebuilt the engine on (had 0-zero-oil pressure).
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby BigMike » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:56 pm

Good deal on the 108!
My guess on the Thunder Chicken is a missing oil galley plug.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby DaveKamp » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:56 pm

Ken said: "It's been said many times that half of all gear drive Cubs that have been parked behind the shed are because of clutch issues, I go along with that."

Kinda obvious... that if you say it, then that statement is true, right? :lol:

I'll give that statement some merit though- and not just for clutch issues... also for CROSSPIN couplers on shafts. The crosspin seems like a great idea, but in the long run, once there's slop in there, it becomes a shear-pin and NOBODY (except us gearheads) is inclined to go in there to fix it.

Of course... it happens on hydrostats, too...

driveshaft.jpg

...except for mine... :D
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby redvettemike » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:05 am

Here is rebuilt engine. The older gentleman that owns it has worsening dementia. I am dealing with his son on this engine issue. The owner's physician has taken the gentleman's drivers license as he cannot drive because of the dementia. He wrecked his Cadillac and it was Grace that he did not kill himself or someone else. He is calling me wanting this Thunderbird back thinking that will get him back on the road. He doesn't know that he will never drive it. A sad story but one that is happening to more and more of us. The classic car hobby will not look the same as today in 10 years as the generation behind the Boomers is not much interested in these old cars.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby DaveKamp » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:23 am

So which engine is it, and was the cause of the low oil pressure?

That IS a sad situation... a friend's mother has fallen apart due to rapid-onset Alzheimer's, before they took the magic key fob, she would leave the house at 2:15am, and drive to an appointment three and a half days early... then forget where she was, then drive somewhere else... and get out... and forget which car is hers... :oops:

But if he rembembers that the T-bird is his... then what he needs, is to have it back, in his garage, where he can sit in it, mebbie start it up... but so he can't drive away... say... slightly on blocks, with driveshaft disconnected... and exhaust piped out the wall? IF he tries to leave, and asks... tell him that it's an incredibly valuable car, and it's been secured so it won't get stolen...

We know when we're falling apart a little. When we're falling apart alot, we can't usually figure it out. I've noticed that when people start having cognitive or memory problems, they first tend to get a little angry, because they can't figure out what they used to find easy. Once they realize it themselves, then they're usually depressed, because they realize what's happening. Some learn to accept it a little, and try to carry on. It's important to support them through it, because it's all they've got.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby redvettemike » Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:14 pm

The engine is a 272ci. I'm not sure it was the original engine or not. It was not pumping oil up to the top of the heads and was going to be ruined (in our opinion) in short order. Engine rebuild kit was expensive for that rare engine. We had the block machined, crank turned and heads redone, new cam and lifters. The car is a 3 speed manual. This gentleman also has a nice '57 Tbird-one that he also cannot drive. He has a lady that is with him a good part of each day.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby Klapatta » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:02 pm

Dave, you raise one of the eternal questions of the mysteries of life for all the ages :lol:
th.jpg

Speaking of which, I have heard it said many times that one cannot run a hard shaft drive to a hydro pump- that it will damage the pump because it is not flexible enough.
Is this the truth :?:
I'd much rather hear it from the man that has done it firsthand himself rather than engage speculation
So please tell us now, you have my attention. I'm more Mongo than Bruce Lee to begin with anyway.
untitled.png

Yeah, that's right. I've been iced in here for over a day now and I'm startin to turn slaphappy :P
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby DaveKamp » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:23 am

Ken, the secret lies right before you...

It's not a 'hard' shaft. It's collapsible... right in the middle... with a U-joint at both ends. I've offset the motor (actually, skewed it to one side slightly) to provide good clearance of the steering column, and also position the hydraulic pump and exhaust where I want it to be.

But yeah, the answer to your question is correct- a driveline which is incompliant is NOT good for a Sundstrand 15U hydrostat, and frankly, not good for ANY driveline. The frame (particularly when running a front end loader) does flex, and as a result, the driveline's operating envelope changes shape and dimension. My prior configuration of the Mutt's driveline used a U-joint at the hydrostat, with the rag-joint moved to the engine end... and this worked extremely well (never, ever, ever broke a pin, 'cause it doesn't have one available to break), but after 13 years of hard work, the rag joint was well... pretty well done for. I knew when I was working with the Vanguard, that I'd need the ability to adjust it's position a bit more, and I knew that I'd need to make a new drive coupling arrangement for the flywheel, so I just bit the bullet and incorporated U-joints at both ends.

And by the way... notice there's no cooling fan on the 15U hydrostat. Doesn't need one. I've beaten the tar out of this thing, and never, ever, ever had a situation where the transaxle fluid or hydrostat case got too hot.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby cholloway » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:44 pm

The engine is a 272ci. I'm not sure it was the original engine or not.


I believe FORD used the 292 Y-Block engine in the '55 T-Bird.
With the 4 bbl carb it would have been designated as a 182 HP "Power Pack".
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby Klapatta » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:10 pm

Yes I noted the shafts ability to slide in and out, I was wondering if a drive shaft from a Q series snow thrower could be applied in such a case?
They measure 15" collapsed and 17" when extended. They are very stoutly constructed. As I understand some of it's parts were used in the early Scout front wheel drives.
DSCN7619.JPG

My thinking was the pump could not take the pounding that comes along with a single cylinder engine hence a rubber buffer is needed between the two.
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby DaveKamp » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:18 pm

The 'pounding' you refer to is what the driveline engineers call 'service factor'. A single cylinder diesel has the 'worst' service factor, while an inline eight-cylinder steam engine, or a DC electric motor... or a hydroelectric turbine would have the 'best'... the 'pounding' goes away as the power pulses get closer together, lesser in amplitude, overlap, or just plain old 'cease to exist'.

All the Scouts that I had, used 13-series U-joints. I don't remember what class of DANA joints these little ones fall into, but they're certainly not large enough to survive in a Scout. My original driveline used 5/8" shaft, with yokes and crosses from the SKF catalog... and this collapsing PTO driveline used the exact same series, but I don't recall what DANA-Spicer series it was identified under. The PTO shaft LOOKS square, it's actually rectangular... IIRC it's 3/4" x 7/8". In the past, I made ALL my driveline assemblies by cutting the shaft/tubing, and fitting yokes, but in this case, I found that my local driveline shop had the rectangular shaft WITH yokes installed, all I had to do was cut the tube and shaft to suit my minimum collapsed length... then just fit yoke to a flange to suit my engine coupler. Hydrostat used same yoke that I'd used on the 5/8" shaft before.

I suspect the IH shafting from the throwers and tillers would work, but the clearance to steering column would be a bit too tight... AND... that shaft assembly is a bit dear as a viable replacement assembly... the parts I used were inexpensive and common...
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Re: New Guy, 108 Rebuild

Postby Klapatta » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:16 am

The "pounding" I refer to otherwise known as service factor is one reason why Seagrave fire apparatus used their own V12 power plant for nearly thirty years. It was claimed with smoother pulses to the pump it was more efficient, I stabbed a couple of shots off the web to post-
6b362332-a748-4ad6-8669-649b.jpg

Note the dual ignition system much like aircraft engines of the same era-
DSC_0188.JPG

Going off topic here with Ford Y blocks but I was not the one who started it :lol:
Here's some shots from my Feb. 1954 issue of Popular Science that you guys may enjoy ;)
Click on image to enlarge
DSCN7621.JPG

DSCN7625.JPG
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