Loader Mutt Continues...

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Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Postby DaveKamp » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:55 pm

There was one room in her house that was always kept Locked...
it was...
The Garage!

I said all I want is the key to her Ferrari...

(because Aliens Ate My Buick!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp1F0AjFoqE
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Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Postby DaveKamp » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:18 am

BTW... I've got three of his albums on my jukebox system... and just so happens I was mowing yesterday (with hearing protection FM reciever on) and "Airhead" came up while I was cutting the south lawn. Thomas is a brilliant guy... as a session musician, he played for quite a few heavy-hitters. He was the recording keyboardist for Def Leppard's "Pyromania".

So I've been contemplating the process of HOW to go about measuring the length of the parts I'll need from this Dana 60. Of course, the differential is still in this axle, and most of these things are still perfectly useful parts, so I'm not destroying any parts that would still be useful. I have to disassemble the brakes, backing plates, etc., and get things down to a size which will get 'in reach' of a Cub Cadet-size wheel...

Once I've done that, I'll hafta decide how to make a 12-bolt wheel pattern fit inside a 12" garden-tractor rim. One obvious option would be to just use light truck wheels that fit... that'd be a 16.5" older, or 16" newer rim... and another would be to (if the HUB will actually fit) install a light truck wheel center into a 12" garden tractor rim. That'd be a great idea, but it MAY complicate mounting of wheel weights... and finally... will I be able to find a way to get BRAKES in there... I dunno yet... we'll hafta blow up that bridge when we get to it.
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Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Postby Klapatta » Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:37 am

With these machines it has always been about traction rather than horse power. I have always felt that by the time the 70/100 series was on the drawing table they should have evolved into a 14", 15" or 16" drive wheel configuration while they had the opportunity and factor final reduction drive gear ratio and frame length accordingly by creating a machine along the lines as the Case 444, some power Kings, or the larger Simplicities. Actually 15" would have been ideal as it would have allowed plenty of room for automotive style external drum brakes and both snow and Ag tires were produced in that size in those days. Try finding a 15" Ag tire now, it's difficult but there's skid steer patterns a plenty. Miller has 15" Ag pattern in 7.6 but not 8.5 or 10.5. Perhaps this was decided against as it would then have been placed very close to the Lo Boy. In any case history has rendered it's decision.
I have been looking for a 15" Ag pattern in 8.5 or 10.5 for years, no dice.
61wxlGcgpPL.jpg

By the way Dave. I have to ask. Please don't get offended. Is this you?
science.png
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Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Postby Klapatta » Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:03 am

If anyone could offer me a lead on finding ONE or a PAIR of these I'd very much appreciate hearing from you. Thanks
DSCN8518.JPG

DSCN8519.JPG

DSCN8521.JPG
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Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Postby DaveKamp » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:22 pm

Klapatta wrote:By the way Dave. I have to ask. Please don't get offended. Is this you?


No... I'm found four octaves down, on the far right side of the stage:
http://www.identitycrisisqca.com/
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Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Postby DaveKamp » Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:37 pm

Okay, so time to liberate some needed componentry...

Starting with the Dana 60, we remove the lug nuts and axleshaft nuts, lockwashers, and cone washers. This side I'd already loosened up many years ago, and pulled out the axleshaft to count splines. IIRC it's a 19-spline 'coarse', but that's irrelevant for this project... I'm using the other axleshafts, just need these spindles and hubs.

the axle's endplate LOOKS like it's held in with just nuts and washers, but there's a countersink in the plate, and each countersink is filled with a conical washer that has a split in it. When you tighten down the nut, it forces the lockwasher against the conical washer, into the countersink, making it absolutely motionless, which is rather important for a heavy truck- if it's possible to move, it'll move, and shear the studs right off the hubs. the conicals eliminate ANY movement.

So notice that the hub and brake drum are still attached. A full-floater is this way- it rolls without axleshafts.
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Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Postby DaveKamp » Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:41 pm

Next... pull off the drum. See this big flat-head screw? There's three, and they hold the brake drum onto the hub.
To remove them, penetrant, and I use a large piece of square tool steel, lean and whack it with a hammer at an angle to 'break' the screw loose, then twist it out with a smaller screwdriver.

A hammer-type impact will work too. See the little dimple on one side? that's the equivalent of 'staking'... it expands the metal underneath to fit the countersink TIGHT, so it doesn't want to back out.
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Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Postby DaveKamp » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:16 am

Next is to remove the hub, which requires prying back the tabs on a keeper, then unthreading the lockring, removing it and the keeper, unthreading the adjustment nut, removing the bearing, and pulling the hub assembly off the hollow spindle.
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Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Postby DaveKamp » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:18 am

Now time to get that big nasty backing plate out of the way... some penetrant on the backplate nuts... zap them out with cordless impact, and a light rap with the hammer, and it's off...
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Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Postby DaveKamp » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:21 am

Now, the other side was a repeat, save for a few things... one is that the axle flange didn't really wanna release from the hub... it took a little coercion with a chisel in the seam...

oh, and here's what that hub looks like off the axle. Beastly, eh?
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Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Postby DaveKamp » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:23 am

Now... pause for a few critical measurements...

I need to know the distance of the wheel flange, from where the wheel mounts, to the transaxle housing.

On the Dana 60, the mounting surface of the wheel is 4-3/4" from the spindle's welded seam.
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Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Postby DaveKamp » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:25 am

On the RIGHT side housing, the Cub Cadet's STOCK setup put the wheel mounting surface approximately 8-5/8" from the TRANSAXLE mounting surface.
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Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Postby DaveKamp » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:27 am

Another important point of note... is that the Dana 60's axle shaft is a forged one-piece item, and there's a recess in the end flange, whose purpose is to provide clearance for the bearing lockrings.
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Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Postby DaveKamp » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:28 am

Another measurement I'll need, is the PILOT opening that the new wheel system will require. It's around 4.75".
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Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Postby DaveKamp » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:30 am

Next comes a quick visit from the cutting torch, where I cut off the old spring perches, and I made my cut right in the middle of where the perches USED to be...

And here's a look at the side of the cut tube. Notice how thick the wall is on this tubing? Yeah... it's strong...
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Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Postby DaveKamp » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:31 am

And here's the stubs, cleaned up a bit using a flapper-disc in the 4" grinder, and a quick bath in the parts washer.
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Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Postby DaveKamp » Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:51 pm

So time for a little preliminary thinking-out-loud, and some eyeball and caliper measuring...

Here's the IHCC axle housings, one with axle in it (it's the broken off one, so the height is actually fairly correct) and one of the D60 outers with hubs installed.

Obviously I'll be shortening the outers a little bit. How much depends on LOTS of factors, and one of those factors is what I'm gonna do with respect to WHEELS.

See, the center pilot of the D60 is about the same size as the IHCC BOLT PATTERN. I'm gonna be either opening up a stock wheel, or (most likely) making a new wheel center.

or mebbie... if I can find the right 'stuff', make a set of special wheels to fit 26-12-12's and bolt to these 8-bolt hubs.

next is brakes. I haven't had brakes on Mutt since I built it... frankly, there's been very few times I NEEDED brakes, but when I did, it was usually because I had one wildly spinning wheel... which with limited slip, I probably won't see as much of that, except where the OTHER wheel is spinning wildly, too (as in, they're both in the air)...

But I'd like to leave myself some option for brakes... if for no other reason than just being able to lock it down when I climb off. Dunno how, but I'm contemplating it.
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Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Postby DaveKamp » Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:38 pm

And here's a few measurements to remember:

OD of the D60 tubes indicates 3.125.
ID is 2.466.

That means wall thickness is 3.125-2.466/2=0.3295"... 0.330" wall.

this means the AREA of cross section is
Area of outer diam - area of inner diam
(1.64*1.64*3.14) - (1.23*1.23*3.14)
8.445 - 4.75 = 3.69 sq in
Now, this is fairly decent steel, but for sake of practical and conservative estimation, that it's somewhere better than 'basic', but not 'really good'.

Basic mild steels exhibit a yield strength of 29,000psi (29ksi).

A 6011 welding rod is so named because it's alloy exhibits a yield of 60,000psi. Likewise, a 70-series rod, or ER-70S welding wire will be up around 70,000psi.

Let's say this steel is bursting with mediocrity... at 45ksi.

Let's also say that when this tube is under a load, it's supported ridgedly at the axle housing, and cantelevers out to a wheel that's located 6" from the transaxle mounting face. That means there's tension on the BOTTOM side of the tube, and compression on the TOP. This is what's called a basic 'overhanging' load... it's like pipe sticking out of the wall, with a flowerpot hanging from it... it's just that the flowerpot is upside-down.

One could draw up a very sophisticated 'model' of the stress as it's distributed around the tube... with compression on top, tension on bottom, and forms of torsion on the side, for a simple WAG would be to say that 70% of the tube material is handling MOST of the strain. Where do I get this? Easy- Root Mean Square... calculus... area under a curve. It's certainly not precisely-perfectly-accurate, but it's safe to postulate that when bending a solid shape, the outer edges see the most strain, while the center gets very little. In the case of a round tube, the strain is greatest at the outside edges, and it falls off with trigonometric function as one approaches center.

I'm certain that many engineers will dispute the accuracy of my method, but notice that I've already rounded the numbers above, and I'm not looking for precision, I'm looking for a WAG.

3.69*45,000*0.707 /2 = 586987 pounds of force. This is what it'd take, at the FACE of the transaxle, to break the tube off... IF the tube was in no other way supported other than a 100% penetration X-ray quality weld.

Problem is, that wheel is overhanging, which means there's a lever. The fulcrum is actually in the MIDDLE (the axis) of the tube, and the triangle of leverage is measured from the CENTER of the axle shaft axis, to the MIDDLEISH of the area... which would be about 1.8"... and let's say the load on that wheel is 18" away... the overhanging force on the wheel would be multiplied 10x by the time it got to the weld on the bottom of the axle tube plate.

In reality,the numbers are substantially different, because the CONTACT POINT of the tire is out past the rim, and it's 13" away from the axle center. Let's just say that the wheel's load center is about 18" out, and 13" down from support point. That's somewhere in the realm of probably 16 inches or so. 16" lever acting on a 1.8" surface, that's a force multiplier of 8.8x.

Let's go backwards... if I did the math of 4000lbs applied to a 16" lever working against an 1.8" load to fulcrum, I'd see 32000lbs of strain. To get that, I'd have to have 8000lbs on the back of the tractor.

Does that seem like a kind of load I'd ever get to?

I didn't think so...
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Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Postby DaveKamp » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:58 am

So it's clear that I have several options with how I deal with wheels.

I could...
torch holes in existing wheels and slap 'em on...
Cut new wheel centers, torch old ones out, and weld new ones in existing wheels using same offset
Do same, but different offset...
Getting stock brakes to fit in there 'tween the new hubs and axle tubes would be a challenge...

OR...
Make all new wheels...


There'd be advantages to each... but at the moment, i'm considering building all new wheels.
If I did, I'd make them STUPID HEAVY... I'd include run-flat bands inside, perhaps bead-locks... fastening points for tire chains...

and if I did that... I think I could just fit the axle tubes with brackets for brake shoes that act directly on the inside of the wheels...

Hmmm....

Hmmmmmm....
:idea:
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Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Postby DaveKamp » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:44 pm

And here's a couple pictures to explain the size relationship... notice that the wheel fits over the axle and spindle in a fairly nice way... but there's not a whole lotta room inside that wheel for additional stuff like disk brakes and shoes.

Imagine, though, if that hub was sitting deeper into the wheel... to the point where the outer end of the spindle (and the axle shaft flange, particularly) were about flush with the outside of the rim... that puts the BACK side of the stud flange into the wheel quite a long distance, so that the ID of the WHEEL could very possibly become... a brake drum.

I'd just need to figure out an appropriate-sized shoe, linkages, and of course, not erode away a precious wheel.

I'm gonna need to do more measuring 'n stuff.. but first, a pause for station-identification... and change heater hoses on my son's Accord...
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Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Postby DaveKamp » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:55 pm

Okay, so for a few wheel measurements...

Rim maximum OD 13.25".
BEAD surface 12-5/8"
Wheel inside 10"
Rim max width 9-1/8.

IF I were to build a wheel to replace it... I think I'd start by looking for a piece of 10" ID steel tubing with at least a 3/8" wall... that's hydraulic cylinder material... 26" long or so...
then I'd turn the rim sections using 1/2" plate, and have the sides of the rim cut with 1/2" material, then slip it on, weld it good, then cut the bead profiles in with a lathe.

10" ID on that big tube means I'd have enough depth for the tire to mount (bead clearance, right?). Hmmm...

Or mebbie I can find some forklift solid-tire assemblies that have a 10" ID and 9" wide?
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Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Postby Klapatta » Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:35 pm

Keep in mind that these gear cases are not indestructible. When a specific area is built up another weak link in the system will turn up.
A while back I sold this straight cut pinion gear to a forum member. He installed it in his turbocharged diesel Cub. He badly twisted that shaft while making a pull. Wish I still had the photo of that, but it's probably in my data system somewhere. It was pretty hard to believe how much skew he turned into it.
DSCN0573.JPG

I have seen stock ring gears with most every tooth buzzed off as well.
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Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Postby DaveKamp » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:21 pm

I totally believe that... and I'll be there's more circumstances of that happening that nobody talked about. :oops:

I'm totally prepared to bust stuff, and I totally expect that when I do, I'll hafta find a way to improve it... but at the moment, well, I'm fixin' what broke.

I'm certain that horsepower wasn't the primary cause of this failure... deflection during tight turns was the biggest issue. 26-12-12's with ag treads, loaded with fluid, packed with weights, in soft, but cohesive, grippy soil, making that semi-floating axle deflect inside the housing, was 90 percent of it.

Nice thing about a hydrostat, is that it tends to reduce the shock of a single-cylinder's impulse peaks... the big contributor to 'service factor' limitations. The Honda V-twin is much smoother, and probably a little stronger than an Onan 18, but I'm pretty sure the 15U hydrostat's high pressure relief will crack before it'll tear up the gears.

I DO know that when someone doesn't set up the gears quite right, or the case has deflection... that things will go wrong. i HOPE that doesn't happen to me, but if it does, I'll have learned plenty from it. :roll:

Tuition in the 'school of life' is expensive at times... ;)
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Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Postby Klapatta » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:39 am

Given that the hydro pinion shaft is much shorter than the gear drive pinion shaft and well supported at both ends such is hardly to be considered as a likely fail point. I was using the manual gear pinion drive shaft as an example of when things go wrong.
DSCN8541.JPG

The image of that twisted shaft is lost. That twist was unusual by itself, it's far more common for the upper to fail. When I sold it in 09 and he twisted it one year later that image was sent to me via private message over at the old forum. I never added that to my photo archives. A lot of vital info vanished forever when that forum got shut down :(
I think the thing here that people would like to see, the thing that is most important to me is the adaptation of a limited slip differential carrier that will fit within the confines of the stock unaltered frame rail width dimension. It's your project your call, so keep on it and good luck
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Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Postby DaveKamp » Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:20 pm

There is NOTHING on Loader-Mutt that will ever be safe from the possibility of my plasma cutter, MIG, or mill. There are many machines in my life that ARE somewhat more 'sacred', but Mutt is a machine first and foremost... it does difficult, nasty, brutal work, not beauty-queen duty... it is self justified as means to an end.

That being said, that WAS a perfectly stock transaxle case before I cut the left-side bearing cup mounting point out... and it will have a stock ring/pinion, stock pinion shaft, and hydrostat unit. If something in that group fails, I'll rebuild it strong.

Making the limited slip fit into a case that is NOT cut... well, it won't be this one... it's just too wide... and if I were to take it to the lathe and cut away at it on both sides to try making it short enough to fit into stock positions, the result would be a case with so little metal left on the sides, that it would have no strength left.

The weakness that STARTED this, wasn't the differential... it was the axle shaft that broke... and it broke in a fashion that gave a substantial indication of something other than the axles just twisting off, or an end gear or diff housing breakng. Lacking the same parts options that pullers use (from aluminum SGs), and seeing that the replacement plan required doing machinework, I chose to use what I had.

Because of the circumstances, there is NO way that one can just put this diff inside a housing and slap stock outers on- the stock outers are simply not large enough to accept a 1.61" fine-spline axleshaft, and I do not intend to go through this much of an exercise, just to stop at the half-way point... I'm going the distance.
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