Johnny Cash type of tractor.....

[JMotuzick]

Josh
I always thought they stopped making the 149s when the 169s came out. I believe they continued making the rest of the 89 series until the end of production until the quiet line series started. Then again...I could be wrong too.

[mikeyb]

What's the difference between the 12 and 13 fin Kohler?

[l palma]

One fin obviously

[Paul B]

There were two versions of the K 341A used in the 169, the 12 fin and 13 fin blocks. It is my understanding the 13 fin block has thicker cylinder walls. I don't know that that holds true of the K-341 AQS engine used in the 1650. The fin count only comes into play when talking about the engine in a 169, there are other K series blocks that also have 13 fins (12, 14 hp), but they are not the same.

[mikeyb]

One fin obviously

Funny Lew!

[mikeyb]

There were two versions of the K 341A used in the 169, the 12 fin and 13 fin blocks. It is my understanding the 13 fin block has thicker cylinder walls. I don't know that that holds true of the K-341 AQS engine used in the 1650. The fin count only comes into play when talking about the engine in a 169, there are other K series blocks that also have 13 fins (12, 14 hp), but they are not the same.

Thanks Paul!
I had to go out and check my 169 engines and they are all 13 fin.

[Paul B]

Josh,
From information given by Harold Schramn, former IH engineer with ties to the Cub Cadet, it was thought the 169 was the last of the series built, and built after production of the other models in the series ended, but that has proved to not be the case. There are some 169's out there with S/N's reported to be as early as May 1974. An effort to compile a list of 169 S/N's is being made, on another forum, and I believe the majority (but not all) of the S/N's collected so far are in the Aug to Oct 74 time frame. So from the the monthly production record figures, and the different months of 169 S/N's that have been reported, we know that other models had to still be in production during 169 production. Now with that said, I still believe the 169 may have been the last model of the series produced, or in production, just not all 4005 of them at one run. Could have been a 1000 or more, could have been a 100 or less, but still have been the last of the series produced.

[Tim DeLooza]

Kenneth, The count on the two K-361 blocks I have here is 12 fins. The lower block casting is basically the same but it’s a wide base. The “jug” area is really pretty different than the other K series.

[Klapatta]

Tim, thank you for the reply. The conclusion that I can assume then is that no sort of casting core insert change was ever done between the K341 and K361 pattern blocks and that the K361 was from the start of it's own pattern. Of course many styles of block variations have been reported over the years not including just the wide base and narrow base mount styles.
I'm fairly positive that no K361 OHV engine ever made it's way into a Cub Cadet from the factory but it's been done later on I'm sure. I have seen quite a few of them in the Economy tractor and they seemed rather tall with those valve covers making hood clearance in a CC an issue.
Just on the basis of wanting to know, with the two you have is there any place on them that shows an identification number of 361?
So much for that theory Thanks again-

[Farmallgray]

The 13 fin blocks were desirable to pullers because they could usually be bored to 4". The 12 fins can only be bored to around 3-15/16" as I recall. This is less important now because there are aftermarket blocks now available that can go bigger yet. Don Vogt told me he has never found a 13 fin block in an AQS (QL 1650) style.

[Oak]

Here's my all original April 1974 built 169. I'm the 3rd owner.

[HydroHarry]

Todd - that's very interesting that Don Vogt has never found a K341AQS with 13 fins. I'm fairly certain I've heard at least 2 people claim they have an AQS with 13 fins. Also, Kohler had to be getting the 13 fin block ready for an AQS type assembly at some point. There is a casting spot about the size of a quarter in the area of the lower 3 to 4 fins on the side where the air duct mounts on the AQS (it's the PTO side of the non-AQS). This gets drilled and threaded for the duct mount on an AQS, and it's there but not drilled on my K341A. You can see it on some of the other blocks as well, and it's not drilled out. The last 12hp block Paul posted pics of has it not drilled. Kohler had to have been getting their block casting ready for this. Here's a copy of Paul's pic showing it not drilled. I wonder is someone could post a pic of it drilled on the AQS block. This would certainly make it seem like there should be some early K341AQS blocks that are 13fin types.

Pauil's 12hp magnified.JPG (21.41 KiB) Viewed 8487 times

Hydro Harry

[ljones]

A member on another forum has been recording engine fin count and s/n of 169s and it is completely random on weather or not the tractor had a 12 or 13 fin engine.

[ljones]

The member on the other forum has record of several 1650s with a 13 fin.

[DavidH]

Here is a pic of a 13 fin engine out of a 1650 I use to have, I still have the engine but sold the tractor. My 169 has a 12 fin block in it.

13fin.jpg (107.21 KiB) Viewed 8439 times

[HydroHarry]

David - since the 12 and 14hp blocks are apparently 13 fin I wondered if you verified this block was a 16hp K341 by counting 10 bolt holes for or on the head.

Hydro Harry

[ljones]

Harry, the 10hp blocks had 13 fins too.

[DavidH]

I bought the tractor from the original owner, he had never had the engine out of the tractor. I went out an pulled the top shield off and took some pictures. While I was out there, I also checked some of my other engine blocks and they were all 12 fin (10, 12, and 14 blocks). I've never seen a 13 fin smaller engine, but I don't go around counting every fin on every engine either! (only the 16hp. engines). The pic of the engine tag came out blurry but you can barely make out K341 AQS.

341.1.jpg (85.16 KiB) Viewed 8418 times

341.2.jpg (122.2 KiB) Viewed 8418 times

[jspicer]

Paul,
Thanks for the info. Too bad the old registry went down. Could have been an easy check to see 129, 149, and 169 serial numbers and the highest in each. My 169 is in the 529,000 range and I remember on the old registry one that was 5297XX. I don't disagree that the 169's were built by themselves at the end. Guess we'll never know if they were the last 100 or 1000 tractors.

On a side note, working on the 1650 and counted the fins, only 12 fins on my 1650.

[JLazar]

Harry, the 10hp blocks had 13 fins too.

If I counted right, my k241 has 13 fins as well. It is a k301 block.

[mgonitzke]

The number of fins is irrelevant on anything but a K341, as all of the K241-321 engines have 13 fins. Only the K341 has either 13 or 12.

[sacky07]

this is good stuff right here, good reading.