Johnny Cash type of tractor.....

[Paul B]

.......get it one piece at a time. Got to start with something, and this looked like a good place to start even though it is a little parts challenged. It 's not stuck, has compression, and no extra windows in it's 13 fin block. Looks to have been in a gear drive at some point.

[HydroHarry]

Paul - can't quite figure the engine out. I think I see a hole in that cam cover next to where the points should be, but it's not for a dipstick. In the other pic I don't see a dipstick tube. Where or where do you check the oil??? It certainly looks to have been used in a Cub Cadet, and it has the fingers on the plate for a clutch set up. What's the K series model and spec number listed on the tag? And where does Johnny Cash fit in?

Hyro Harry

[jspicer]

Looks like maybe the cam cover was modified or the dipstick got broken off??? One piece at a time, a play off a Johnny Cash song.

Nice find on the engine Paul. Gotta 169 roller you're putting it in? One of these days, I've got to pull those grenade gears out of my 169.

[Paul B]

Harry,
Yes the hole in the cam cover (die cast) is for the dipstick with the small, round, knurled top/end which is missing. The engine is a 13 fin K 341A out of I assume a 169, Spec # 71154a, S/N is 6166297 built in 1974. It does have a Cub Cadet PTO clutch on it and the clutch drive disc, so it was last in a gear drive CC.

Josh,
Don't have a 169 roller, not sure what I'll do with the engine. Because of the shake/vibration of the engine, Harley Davidsons have been called the Milwaukee Vibrator, along with other names, so in the cub Cadet world I guess you could call a 16 hp Kohler in a 169 the Louisville Vibrator. A 16 horse single cylinder has a little more shake to it than I care for.......unless maybe it is in a custom built "toy" that doesn't see much use, and I've built a couple of those

[HydroHarry]

Paul - you have an interesting find here. Sure wish you had the tractor to go with it. My K341A is serial no. 6272028 and as you must be aware the first 2 digits ranging from 60 to 69 of a 7 digit serial number, indicates it was built in 1974. My 169 tractor serial no. is 523760 which is a build date of Sept 1974. One of my son's 169 has a Kohler K serial no. 6337740 and the tractor serial no. is 528330 which is a build date of Oct. 1974. You provided other discussion about 169 production primarily being from Jun/July thru Sept/Oct 1974. On this basis it would appear to me your K341A would be from an early production 169 since your serial no. is 6166297. I realize it's something of a stretch to make that determination but would you agree???

Now, you mention shake/vibration of the engine - I'm not sure there is as much as you may think. My K341 wasn't running when I purchased it and I overhauled it with new .010 rod, gound the crank .010, and honed the cylinder and installed .003 oversized piston and rings, laped the valves, and re-installed the balance gears (this was about 12 years ago before all the major discussions about balance gears). I don't believe mine shakes that much as long as the idle is up around 1100-1200rpms. I can't go below 1000 or it does really roll back and forth and shake the hood all over. But it purrs nice in the 1100-1200 range, or even a little over that. Hope you can find a 169 to drop it into. There should be some around since there is so much talk about the balance gears putting windows in the K341's.

Another thing, and I know it's something of a long shot, but my son has a 1650 with the optional cold weather clutch set up (the parts manual calls it Hydrostatic Disconnect Attachment which is sort of an odd name), but its the same clutch assembly as used in the gear drive. I think it's possible someone could have added it to the 169 your engine came from to make it easier to start in cold weather. I know it's not listed as an option for the 169 in the parts manual but I don't see why it wouldn't work.

Any chance you can provide some more closer up pics of the engine. I'd like to get a better look at that cam cover and the exhaust pipe. To bad about the dipstick. I know the parts manual lists the 12, 14 and 16 dipsticks with the same part number, but they are not all the same. The 16 does get a really stiff stick, and I think some of the 14s had the same stick, but I don't recall seeing the same stick in a 12. I'll check mine when I have a chance. I know the part number is stamped right into the stick. I know I have a old stick that is a little scared up from hitting a cam shaft (if you aren't careful putting it back in straight I guess you can push it right up against the camshaft gear).

Hydro Harry

[Paul B]

Harry,
Since it appears the 169 was built over a longer period of time than just the last couple of months of the series production as Harold had suggested, it is probable that this engine is from a early 169, HOWEVER keep in mind that we are talking about an era when things were built from stockpiled parts, not from the "just-in-time delivery" as is the norm today. Parts from vendors came in the back door and went to stock, and then from stock to the assembly line as needed, with no effort made to use them in S/N squence. Engines would have been delivered from Kohler to IH's Louisville Plant in multiple pallets/boxes/crates at a time, gone to stock and then to assembly. So if a pallet with low S/N engines was the first off the truck to go to stock, it could have been the last to go to the assembly line, (first in stock, last out of stock). I worked at GE's Louisville Appliance Park in the manufacturing and assembly of major appliances, from 1958 until Sep 1974, and that was pretty much the norm for the industry during that time.

These pictures are of the cam cover of this K341, the broken exhaust elbow (I've been told old people do dumb things), and of the same type cam cover and dipstick in a K301 12 hp engine I have. The dipstick has a 6" blade, but does not have a P/N on it.

[Jlaws]

Paul , I bought a 169 a few years back that was a roller . The owner had replaced the 16 h.p. with a 12 h.p. that was in a bucket in pieces when I got it . He had saved the 16 h.p. sheet metal of the original 16 h.p. engine , luckily for me . I later found a 16 h.p. from Mike Andrews but it had a different dipstick location and different cam cover , and isn't a 13 fin , and I believe it came out of a 1650 . It also smokes a fair amount and I'll need to rebuild it when I get around to it .

My questions are , did all 169's have the 13 fin block , and whats your future plans for that engine ??

[JMotuzick]

Did someone say 169 roller?

Harry This is Matt's handy work...

For those that don't know Matt is Harry son and my painter!

[Paul B]

Jess,
It is my understanding the 169 used both a 12 fin and a 13 fin block, but I don't know where the S/N break (or what ever) is between the two. The dipstick and tube on a 16 hp from a 1650 would be out of the right side of the block, below where a starter generator would be (if it had one). The sheet metal for the 169 block is different than the 1650 block. The 1650 engine does not have balance gears in it (according to the TC-157 parts manual), the 169 engine does, hince the difference in the dipstick location.

For the time being, this engine is just going to take up space in my garage, I don't know what I'm going to do with it yet.

[HydroHarry]

Did someone say 169 roller? This ain't exactly a roller but almost (and of course it's gone now).

old 169.JPG (27.36 KiB) Viewed 11572 times

Joe - hmmm, so that's some of Matt's work. Do you have the engine ready to drop in?

Paul - I hadn't heard there were no balance gears in the K341 used in a 1650. I don't see them listed in my TC-157, but I also don't see them for the engine under the 169. With so many diagram numbers and the layout I maybe missing them. Can you let me know the diagram number for the balance gears shown for the 169 engine in your TC-157? On the dipstick in your 12hp, that looks like what was used in the 14hp in a 147. According to the Op manual it was for dipstick use only, and filling the oil was on top of the block. Does your 12hp have that top access tube?

Hydro Harry

[Farmallgray]

The XX50s had two dipstick locations. Some came out the shoulder of the block at the top of the crankcase with a press fit tube while others had the tube bolted to the side of the block ahead of the starter. Maybe one style was with balance gears and the other without?

[Paul B]

Harry,
The index #'s in the TC 157 for the 169 balance gears and associated parts are 80, 95, 109, and are pictured beside the crankshaft.

Yes, the 12 hp engine I posted the dipstic from does also have the top oil fill tube, but the the K341 does not have the top oil fill tube. The 12 hp dip stick does have the F.......L markings on it.

With that said, this other 12 hp engine has a different cam cover dipstick, and does not have the top fill tube. After looking at it closer, this dip stick and the cup it fits in is probably what is suppose to be in cam cover casting that is on the 16 hp engine, rather than the one with the knurled top.

[HydroHarry]

Paul - yes the dipstick on your other 12hp looks to be the correct one for the 169, and when checking the TC-157 the 12hp (129) shows the same part number used in the 16hp (169). The dipstick should have part no. 237620 stamped into it. I only mention this since I've had a thin really flexible dipstick in that camcover, and the roound pull was slightly different as well, but the one in your pic sure looks correct.

Now with regard to the balance gears, thanks for pointing out the diagram numbers - I see them now on the parts page. I also checked the 12 and 14hp engines for the xx8/xx9 series and they also show the balance gears. As soon as you jump to the Quiet Line series the balance gears dis-appear. But as Farmallgray points out there were 2 different dipstick locations on the Quiet Line, and I had thought the side mount style was used on engines with the balance gears and the top mount press fit tube was used on engines without balance gears. This is not indicated at all in the TC-157, but there is an oddity if you look at the description of the oil fill tube - the diagram shows a press fit, the but part number describes a shoulder mount and specs a serial number, but doesn't have the earlier serial number version. Something a little strange here. I'm beginning to think IH went to the rubber ISO-mounts as a result of Kohler doing away with balance gears. Is there anyway to find out details on Kohler making this design change to the K series?

And by the way, it may actually be that the K341A with the balance gears does not shake as much as the K341AQS withOUT balance gears. What's your thoughts on the balance gears in your K341A? Are you leaving them in? Throwing them away?

Hydro Harry

[JMotuzick]

Harry
The engine is sitting on the stand behind my truck. A bit hard to take pictures of.... It's a 13 fin fully re-built and ready to go in! The 126 will get done first, hopefully before spring but as I gather things I'm missing for the 126 I'm sure to get the correct one for the 169 as well. This afternoon Colleen and just did the head lights/decals for the 126 the 169 ones will get done before we put everything away!

[JMotuzick]

Harry
that "Under the deck" Picture was 10,000 on the old forum, still saved that way on my computer. I had the dash tower until not long ago, still might be close by, I did a bunch of clean up last fall I think it might have just gone to scrap....

Also check out the "126 resto" thread more pictures of Matt's work including some in the both shots!

[HydroHarry]

Joe - are you sure about the dash tower? I'm getting a little long in the tooth but I thought I restored it and used it here. Might be wrong tho, this one just looks so good (along with the 13fin K341A). I'll check out your 126 restor thread as well.

new169i reduced.JPG (29.38 KiB) Viewed 11572 times

Hydro Harry

[Paul B]

Harry,
In his book Original Farmall Cub and Cub Cadet, Ken Updike states that the Quiet Line model tractors were IH's answer to a proposed law that was never passed, dealing with the noise decibel level. The side panels, rubber mounted engine, bigger mufflers, and front discharge exhaust were all to help reduce the decibel level for safer operator operation and a reduced noise level. He goes on to say the IH exclusive engine ISO mounts absorb the engine vibrations before they could be transmitted to the rest of the machine and or the operator. The idea of the ISO mounts was adapted from the IH 66 series tractor cabs. I would think that isolating the shake/vibration from the frame/chassis would also help reduce the noise level.

I take/leave the balance gears out, and have really not noticed much difference between them being in or out. I would rather do that than have them install an un-needed hole in one of Mr. Kohler's fine engine blocks. Might be able to determine when the balance gears were removed by using the Spec number of the engine. Be curious to see if an AQS (Quiet Line type) engine used in some other brand tractor used balance gears.

I've had a 169 or 2, but really don't care that much for them, just as soon have a 149. IMO they have nearly as much power, don't shake as much, and use a little less gas, but then I don't use/work the tractors I have as much as most people do.

[HydroHarry]

Paul - thats it. I just have to get Ken's book. I do wonder about the decibel level difference in the noise tho. In my opinion the QL units actually seem louder than the earlier S/G style units. It may be just the tone of the muffler makes them seem different, or have something to do with listening to them inside a garage. As much as I do like the QL units (my very 1st tractor was a 1450) I never really liked the integrated starter and the noise it made, and that it takes longer before the Kohler K starts compared to a finely tuned S/G version (that starts almost before you turn the key). Still kinda wonder about the ISO-mounts tho. I never really looked at those green machines, but the few I've seen did have the engine rotated 90degrees from the way IH mounted them, and Wheelhorse had theirs rotated as well. Any idea if the green people used any kind of an ISO-mount? I believe they went to full side panels about the same time IH did. Interesting WH never covered their engines that I'm aware of, and they also used alot of Kohlers as well.

Hydro Harry

[Klapatta]

My impression had been that the die cast cam cover and round knurled dipstick arrived on the scene first sometime around the 1x6,7 series and was later replaced (around 1974?) by the stamped steel combination fill tube and pull ring dipstick. The later type do appear on the replacement engines. Is that correct

[Paul B]

I don't know, but of the two types of 12 hp dipsticks I posted, both of those engines came out of model 126 Cub Cadets. Don't know if they were the original engines or not but both were running, but rough, tractors, and both came from different places in Missouri on the same trip to Cub Arama, not that the trip or state has anything to do with the type of cam cover/dipstick.

Under edit, Kenneth, I just remembered, I have a 12 hp replacement engine that was in a 100 I bought, and yes, it has stamped cam cover w/dipstick with the curled top

[Klapatta]

This would be how my 126 is fitted and since the transaxle SN and engine SN fall on the same month I can't help but assume that it left the line that way. I believe it did. Forget the date now but I have it down someplace. I took care of the leaky breather last month

The discussion concerning the 12 and 13 fin 16HP block got me to thinking about something.
Can someone report the number of cooling fins on the K361 OHV block? If I recall that one was made from 1971 to 1976.
Is it possible that the K361 platform block pattern was used for early K341 production with an mold insert pattern change over to provide in block valve casting provision

[chearn]

Since we are showing 169 rollers, here's mine:

The PO told me his kids wanted to mow but didnt check the oil. With as many of us that have 169 rollers I bet Paul could auction it off and have enough money to retire on.

[HydroHarry]

Kenneth - you mentioned the engine serial number falls on the same month. The kohler manual identifies the code to determine the year of manufact. but how do you tell the month?

Carl - that's sure a nice looking 169 roller. Even has the hydro lift. Do you have the engine or did it end up with a window? I'd definitely talk with Paul about how well it may fit in your roller. He's missing a few pieces right now but maybe you have them if you have the original engine.

Hydro Harry

[Klapatta]

Harry,
you ask a good question to what is something of a general observation on my part.
I had to go outside with a flashlight to see for myself and then get the K series manual out to recall what I was thinking:lol:
The transaxle on it is tagged as made on Nov. 69.
The first two digits stamped on the engine tag are 20, during the 1970 production run for the year numbers ranged from 20 to 29, this being the low number I'm assuming it was produced very early on that year

I just looked into the K361 service file and it's interesting to note that both it and the K341 shared the same 3.75" bore

[JMotuzick]

Lots of good food for thought on the dip stick maybe I should have used a different block for my 126. I'm not going to change it now though!

Carl
My 13 fin is sitting comfortably awaiting it's old frame just a few feet away......

Harry
It's been good to see you posting so much today!
I'm glad you found us and hope you stick with us for a while, you've got the bug again I see!
There have been a few changes in the past 10 years, you need to stay seated and catch up!
Don't go passing up those deals out your way any more that 125 should have been in your truck the day it was listed!!!!!

[jspicer]

Lots of great reading and info on this thread. Keep it comin' guys . My 169 came with the original 13 fin motor. Tractor serial number is 5291XX (can't member the last two numbers right now, CRS)! So pretty close to the end. Gotta check the serial number and count the fins on my 1650. I thought I read or heard somewhere that the 149/169's were made by themselves towards the end of the model run. By then, they quit making the 86/108/109/128/129 and only made 149's and 169's. Be interesting to see the highest serial numbers of the 86-129's. I think my 149 serial number is in the 525XXX range. Here's a pic of my original 169. Not a roller, but we all like pics. This is the only pic I could find on the puter. Last winter's snow mover. The ole kohler should would bark when the gov opened up at WOT in deep snow.

[HydroHarry]

Josh - maybe your serial no. tag looks similar to mine. I wish I could find some way to get it restored. The number stampings are still there but the rest of it is hardly legible. The engine tag is alot better tho.

new169d reduced.JPG (20.8 KiB) Viewed 11522 times

Joe - glad to get some seat time back at the puter - can't get any on the 169 while she's a sleeping for the winter. You know you're right about that dash tower too. I sorta remember now the dash tower was half twisted like it had been rolled, and the foot treads had been cut off the fenders with a torch. I was just really lucky the K341A was still in the unit at the time I picked it up - if I'd been one day later I think the whole thing would'a been gone. I know I missed out on that 125 out here, had the hydraulic lift pump on it as well, and it supposedly worked. It's just the distance you have to go out here to find one. I've been thinking about taking a 200 mile trip since I hear there is a few acres of a mixed lot with CC's scattered around. No telling what I may come across. AND don't you go forgetting now - the CORRECT POLICE are just around the corner.

Now, since I didn't really have a roller to post I better go ahead and post a completed pic. Paul - sorry your thread is exceeding the K341A but there is so much to view and discuss. Thanks for allowing these additional items.

new169 1.JPG (35.33 KiB) Viewed 11522 times

Hydro Harry

[JMotuzick]

Harry The Kohler tags can all be had repo but the IH tag I'm still looking to find a source for. Starter tags can be had too, Same tags as used on 50's GM cars I found a 3 pack of tags for about $10 just gota have a stamp set to re-stamp your numbers.

Josh
I've had 149's with low s/n's down around 460,xxx something. Even some with the older 1x6/7 stile wire harness that was junk, even had some 1x4/5's like this too. Remember IH had the 14's on the shelf for the 147 why stop there? Plus Deere was making the 14hp 140 by then they needed something to compete!

[mikeyb]

Nice pics of the 169's!
One of my favorite models.

[jspicer]

Joe,
I knew they were making the 149 along with the rest from the beginning except for the 169. I'll try to clarify what I was thinking. What I had heard was towards the end, they quit making the 86-129 and finished the 1X9 series run with 149's and 169's only. Would kinda make sense cause they ran out of hydraulic lifts hence manuals on some 169's. They ran these two models until the quietlines came out. I hope someone might be able to clarify this as false or true. Some other model/models had to be made with the 169 because dates/ 4005 units made wouldn't give the earlier month 169's other than late 1974 only. Great thread.