Mounting Model 451 Snowblower on Super

[rweaver]

a 451 is made for the later tractors the 450 is the one you need for the 1572 unless the 1572 had a 6 in pto pulley put on it contact me I make those lift kits for the super 717 587 3727

[Tom Scott]

Bryan - As Ray is saying, the 451 isn't going to work for you unless you put a 6" pto on that engine. The 4.6" pto will not spin that thing fast enough. The gears to convert a 451 to a 450 are NLA.

Perhaps you can find a 450, or you will have to get a 6" pto.

[Farmallgray]

I haven't worked with any of these snow blowers for quite a few years. I remember the basic setup on them from when I installed them at the dealerships. I'm just throwing this out for discussion;
What about putting a smaller pulley on the 451 to speed it up? The idler pulleys may have to be moved in to align them with the smaller pulley. Is there any other reason this wouldn't work?

[Tom Scott]

Todd - This would absolutely work, but for me it was easier to go find a 450. Like many things you go to modify, Cub did not make this easy. The input pulley is 7" in outside diameter, but for proper ratios, the pitch diameter is used which is the diameter where the belt rides, so when I did the calcs I used a pitch diameter of 6.10" for the original pulley. After going through the ratio calcs, that would need to be reduced to a pitch diameter of 4.34" to run the blower at the exact same rpm. So...You would probably be buying a pulley with an OD of around 4.5" to 4.75", depending upon the depth of the groove. The math is the easy part.

The original input pulley has a snout, pretty much like a harmonic balancer for a typical engine, like a small block Chevy. So... you just can't buy a smaller pulley (sheave to be correct) easily. It was at this point I started looking for a 450.

The easiest way I have thought of to make this work is to bolt the smaller pulley to the 7" Cub pulley. If there is not room for the belt to clear the large pulley on the way to the smaller one, the 7" pulley would have to be cut down so you are essentially just using the hub and part of the flange to bolt the new pulley to.

Or, make a one time investment (hopefully once...) in the larger pto. The large pto is an improvement, as you are less likely to have belt slippage at heavy loads. With real heavy snow, I get some belt slippage at the pto, but I look at this as protection for all those NLA parts that it is driving. I would rather shred a belt than break the parts.

[rweaver]

the pto from a 1782 is the big one I just sold a pto off a 1782 and it was the same number as the 1641 I may even have one

[rweaver]

I just checked that pto is used a few places 1440 1641 1782 those are the ones I checked

[Tom Scott]

Bryan - Just keep in mind that if you use a mower deck or any other attachment with the new larger pto you will have change the input pulley on the deck (or other attachment). Some of the decks were offered both before and after the pto change, so it is simply a matter of changing the double stack pulley on the deck to the newer version. Cub renumbered the deck model numbers when they were changed to match the large pto's, but it is pretty easy to figure out on the parts sites.

[Farmallgray]

I guess having multiple tractors is why I would lean towards trying to change the pulley on the blower over changing the PTO clutch. If I had 2 or 3 tractors with 5/8" PTO pulleys I would go that route so that all my tractors and attachments would be interchangeable. Otherwise, you'd have to dedicate that tractor to that blower, or change all your other stuff.

I'm in a similar dilemma with my hydraulic couplers. I have 3 tractors with Pioneer couplers that I can put my power angle blade on. I went with them in the beginning because I started with none and they were cheaper and easier to find. I have the Pioneer couplers on the blade too. Then I got the 882 that has the OE Parker couplers so I can put my blade on it. I'll probably just change it to the Pioneer one also.

[Tom Scott]

Todd - I agree with you on wanting the attachments to be interchangeable. Even if you think you are going to dedicate a tractor to an attachment, it is nice to have a back up tractor that can be used with the same attachment if you have a maintenance issue.

The large (6") pto is one of those engineering improvements Cub should have made earlier in the game, or not at all. As they are in the business of selling new tractors, it didn't hurt them to make the change...But... for us collectors of old wanting to get the most out of mix and matching of attachments, it is a real pain in the rear.

I am sure there are countless people who have attached a 451 to an older tractor and declared it a piece of junk because it won't throw snow more than ten feet. I was one of them before I got educated on these things...

[Tom Scott]

Bryan - You really need to get the 451 manual. Got to the MTD manuals link: http://manuals.mtdproducts.com/mtd/Public.do Type in the model number as 190451100 (appears on the blower as 190-451-100; many attachments have this 190 prefix, and the 100 suffix is even more typical). Invent a serial number, not relevant to this search.

Downloads as a pdf, print for quick garage reference. Save a copy to disk for safekeeping...

[Farmallgray]

Bryan,
The 1782 was built both before and after the change to the larger clutch. Most of the other models started and ended with the pto changeover. So if you want the larger clutch, order the one for the higher serial #.

[Frank1541]

Bcuster,

Did you ever solve this. The reason I ask is because I have the opposite problem. I need the 451 gearing for my tractor and I have a 450. I have researched this quite a bit and the solution is to switch the 450 gear box and pulley for the 451 gear box and pulley. The input shafts are different on the two models.

Would you be interested in a trade?

John

[DOK48]

Frank, I just joined this forum as I've often looked but never participated, but read your thread and it parallel's my issues in reverse exactly. Had my discharge fan spline go on my 450 and looked for replacement parts, etc. and came across a 451 in great shape. Bought it and switched the gears from my 450 into the 451 to match my 1811 tractor. I have what is now actually a "451" in a 450 body in need of a new fan, so the gear box is a 451. Maybe we can work something out, as I'm planning to sell the 450 w/451 gears, the gear box or whatever. I know I tried to find gears and the primary is not available for either box which was an issue until I found the 451. Good luck. Just let me know as I'll hold off on listing for now.
David

[DOK48]

John, just tried to send email directly to you and "wasn't allowed", but also noted misnaming you Frank, from your ID vs your profile showing John.

[Frank1541]

Davis,

As new member we are not allowed to use the email system yet. Yes I would like to trade my 450 gear box for the 451. I live just north of Milwaukee, plus I drive all over the midwest for my job.

John

[DOK48]

John,
I sent you a private message that you can act on, reply to, etc. by clicking on User Control Panel, then looking at your messages.

DOK

[wdeturck]

Question for anyone with a 450/451 mounted on a SGT. How did you attach the front of the snowblower mounting bracket to the frame? The rear of the bracket sits on the Frankenstein bolts, but the front mounting point is a large hole on my 1572 frame. I may be able to use a larger washer (to close the hole), separate lock washer and nut on the inside of the frame, but that's gonna be a B-I-tee-see-H to tighten - plus I'm sure it will shift and loosen. Any fixes for that? Would have been nice to have a welded nut inside the frame, but I don't have a welder.

I think they are called PEM nuts that can be installed in sheet metal with a special tool(most body shops have them) but they can be installed using the bolt nut and washers. I got them at McMaster -Carr. I don't know what the maximum thickness you can get them in but I used the 3/8 ones in a pedestal.

[Willy]

Bryan,
I go thru the stress of putting those front mounting bolts in every season. They are a royal pain the in the rear to get in and tighten. Although, once in I have never had a problem with them loosening up. I found that putting the front of the tractor and thrower up on jackstands and working from underneath is the easiest way (for me).

Good luck!
-Ray

Question for anyone with a 450/451 mounted on a SGT. How did you attach the front of the snowblower mounting bracket to the frame? The rear of the bracket sits on the Frankenstein bolts, but the front mounting point is a large hole on my 1572 frame. I may be able to use a larger washer (to close the hole), separate lock washer and nut on the inside of the frame, but that's gonna be a B-I-tee-see-H to tighten - plus I'm sure it will shift and loosen. Any fixes for that? Would have been nice to have a welded nut inside the frame, but I don't have a welder.

[JMotuzick]

Geezer
Those are called Nut-serts The tool for them looks like a pop rivet gun and works in the same manor.

[DOK48]

Not sure about the super, but on the 1811, same basic frame, mounting etc., I've had to use bolts with nylon inserted nuts, 5/8" for years. I disconnect the lift links at the bottom by removing the pins making more space for your hands and arms. I take the nut, place it in a socket on a 5" extension and hold it up lying on the ground, reaching over the quick latch mounting from the inside. Then start the thread from the outside with a bolt...1 1/2 inch length. Once started, add the ratchet handle (all 1/2 " drive) and use a box wrench on the outside to tighten. I tighten securely and have never had one fall out. Really only takes about 10 minutes to do both sides. Further, I just replaced my 450 with a 451 and the holes are only 1/2 inch on the new one and were just over 5/8" on the old one. I cut a 3/16" wafer from a 1/2 inch rod coupling, rounded off teh points, threaded it onto a bolt and reversed the direction to "bush" the hole in the tractor frame down to the 1/2 inch bolt holes on the new blower. Tightened it all up and it works fine. If I can help, feel free to let me know. Hope this helps.
David

[ReicheP]

Or you could remove both side covers, place the 5/8 bolt from the inside and the lock nut on the outside. Works this way on my 682/450.

[Tom Scott]

Bryan - They are hardened steel. All you are going to do with a chisel is make a mess of it.

Use a bottle jack to support the shaft so you will get more use out of each hit with a hammer. Also, let is soak with Aero-Kroil if you can get your hands on some (http://www.kanolabs.com); I believe Graingers handles it if you can buy from them.

If the end is mushroomed bad enough that it needs to be removed, I would cut it off with the heaviest duty abrasive cut-off wheel dremel has.

I found that the worst is getting it to move at first. Kroil, well supported shaft, heavy hammer, pin punch, and a good solid hit are what made mine move.

Supporting the shaft is important, because you are transmitting all that force to the drive-line otherwise. Can't do that easily at the engine end, but can be done at the hydro.

Re-assemble with never-seize so you don't have this trouble if there is a next time. Be sure to reassemble with the proper spirol pins; regular roll pins aren't up to the task.

[Tom Scott]

Oh, and about gravel drive...

I extended the mounting for the slide shoes with some heavy scrap sheet metal (old table saw extensions worked nicely). I got over 2" of clearance with the weight of the blower resting on the ground.

I have steep hills and found that wheel weights alone weren't going to cut it. Last year I ended up loading the tires of the 1872 with RV anti-freeze (11 gals each x 2 tires x 8.4 lb/gal = 185 lb) with my existing 240 lbs of wheel weights, 30 lb of 2-link chains, and 25 lbs hanging off the hitch for a total of 480 lbs.

There was a huge difference after loading the tires; the extra 185 lb completely changed the traction situation. Then the magneto died and winter was over...

[ReicheP]

OK, what about treading a fine piece of string/wire through the hole from the outside, down through the bottom of the tractor, tie to the bolt and pull the bolt up into position?

Well ...... Just as I thought - a REAL bear it was getting that right front bolt in (only took 1.5 hrs !)

Paul, your idea would be a great approach if there wasn't a radiator and lower hose in the way. The hydraulic line that goes to the lower front port also sits right beside that hole!

[Farmallgray]

Just throwing out an idea; Is there room to run a piece of 1/2" or 5/8" rod through from one side to the other? You could drill both ends of the rod for hair pins.
Someone did that on a 1X2 one time since they are so hard to get to the back side inside the grill.

[Dave C]

I just mounted the 450 blower on my 2072 last week.... and mine had nuts welded in the frame.... looked stock to me? Maybe i got a later one and they got smart! The only pisser is they are 1/2-13 and not 5/8s...... dunno why.

[ReicheP]

That's what drills and Taps are for.

The only pisser is they are 1/2-13 and not 5/8s...... dunno why.

[Dave C]

Hmm.... well if i didnt have 3 feet of snow in my driveway.... which im pretty sure i do.... sitting in Aspen airport right now..... i dont have time to do that.... but its definitly on my list! hadnt really considered drilling and taping!

[mgonitzke]

I think they put those nuts in the frame starting in 1987 with the 1811, 1872, etc...my 1872 has them as well, and so did the 1811 I used to have.

[Farmallgray]

Bryan,
Without looking, I was hoping maybe the rod could pass below the hoses. Another idea I had was to weld a nut to the outside of the snow blower bracket then just thread a longer bolt through that till it protrudes into the hole in the frame. I can tell you those nut inserts (even if they make them that big) won't hold up. Welding a nut in there would be your best bet if the rod idea doesn't work.

Matt, Dave,
I remember some tractors having those welded nuts, but I never paid attention to which tractors had them and which ones didn't.