129 Engine Repair Help Needed

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Jerry H
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129 Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by Jerry H »

My 129.......So after new engine noises, I expected trouble. I shut it off, changed out the deck onto my 149 and parked it for several months.

Last night I started into finding what was wrong. The first bad sign was it sounded like pebbles in the drain pan when draining the engine oil. Here’s what I got.
Drain Pan
Drain Pan
So I pulled the engine, and when rolling it around to get it up and on to a work table, now it sounded like a few rocks in the engine. Another bad sign. Here’s what I found in the oil pan and block.
Oil Pan
Oil Pan
Block-Crack
Block-Crack
Dipper
Dipper
(This engine was new in '72 and rebuilt with new piston and rod in '92)

So my comments and Question here........

So I put it back together with out any balance gears. That's a no brainer.........

It looks like the only damage to the block is a crack at the one gear shaft mount. I don't think the crack goes any further.

Should I try to drill a small hole at the end of the crack to keep the crack from extending or just forget about it?

The other problem is the broken Oil dipper on the rod cap. I talked to the "engine guy" at my local Cub Cadet dealer. He knows about single piston Kohlers, the balance gears and oil dipper (although he's not as old as the 129......). He agreed right away to not put back the gears.

He said he has a welder friend that can weld Aluminum very well and should be able to weld back the broken part of the dipper, say he has done that before. Have any of you done that and do you think this is something that would last?

Some of the gear teeth are chipped at the ends, but that should not be a problem and I have some furhter inspecting to do.

I'll take all the comments and recommendation you have. Thanks
Retired and lovin' it......

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ljones
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Re: 129 Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by ljones »

I would get a new dipper becaus if it got hit it can cause tiny stress cracks on the dipper (barly visible with a magnifying glass) and would cause problems in the future.
Have a original and a 122 http://mycubs.yolasite.com/

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mgonitzke
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Re: 129 Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by mgonitzke »

For the cost of a new rod, it's not worth trying to weld an old one back together. Don't do it.

Maybe it's just the picture, but the gear on the crank doesn't look very good, either. If the teeth are messed up on that, they will mess up the camshaft teeth, too, and you'll probably eventually have more shrapnel in there. I think I'd be looking for a used crank, too.
Original, 582 w/ 18 hp Kohler Command, 682 w/ Kwik-Way loader, 782, 782D, 1872 My Cub Site

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Jeff in Pa
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Re: 129 Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by Jeff in Pa »

I have a 1" crank out of a 12 hp Cub Cadet that I purchased ( mismarked on ebay ) that is freshly reground .020 under, never run.

Image Image
click for big pics

I'm into this for $30 plus what I paid for shipping. This would give you a fresh crank at a decent price if you want to go that way with the repair.

Jeff
125 & 125 with hydraulic lift

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rharris
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Re: 129 Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by rharris »

I'm looking at the picture labeled 'block crack' and I'm thinking to myself that looks like one of the spacers that is normally behind each of the balance gears. Jerry, I would look into that further. I can get a pic of a complete balance gear set if you need a reference for what I'm talking about.
Building my Cub Cadet fleet....one bolt at a time.

Jerry H
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Location: Maineville, Ohio

Re: 129 Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by Jerry H »

Rick,

I've just taken a hammer and chisel to the piece that looks like a space. It doesn't move. It looks like a machined part of the block and so does the similar piece at the other shaft location. But the crack does stop there like it could be a spacer. The parts list and diagram for the kohler K301A engine section only shows shim washers in that area.
Shaft Spacer
Shaft Spacer
I'll check it further tomorrow.

Thanks
Retired and lovin' it......

rweaver
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Re: 129 Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by rweaver »

for what I sell shortblock 12 hp engines for I would replace whole shortblock priced at 40.00 if you want one call me 717 587 3727

Jerry H
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Re: 129 Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by Jerry H »

Rick,

I checked out the crack more closely, the spacer seems to be part of the block and is machined there. The crack looks to go only a little bit into the thick block area around the front bearing mount area. If I don't go back with any balance gears, I think it will be ok.

On the crank gear teeth, only two have taken a hard hit. They are not together and are bashed back away from the surface that meets the cam gear. There will be about 70% meshing surface at each of those teeth to the cam gear. I don't thik this should affect the engine.

My concern is if the weld repair on the dipper will last. If I replace the rod, should I replace the wrist pin, and the rings, and then the piston and then hone the cylinder...valves and so on.....

Or just weld the dipper and see what happens?

Jerry
Retired and lovin' it......

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mgonitzke
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Re: 129 Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by mgonitzke »

Don't weld it. Even an aftermarket rod is only $20. Each one of those little dings in the rod and dipper is a fatigue crack waiting to happen. You were lucky it didn't throw those balance gears through the side of the block. Don't push your luck. Even if you weld the dipper back on, it'll probably break again somewhere else as a result of all the dents from the shrapnel flying around in the engine. If it takes the block with it the second time, then you'll be looking for a short block.
Original, 582 w/ 18 hp Kohler Command, 682 w/ Kwik-Way loader, 782, 782D, 1872 My Cub Site

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Jeff in Pa
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Re: 129 Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by Jeff in Pa »

I'm a machinist and work with weldments almost every week. Even though the weld is well over an inch away from the big end, it's highly probable that the heat from welding will make the precision bore go out of round.

Just purchase another rod and that's one less thing to worry about.

Also, since it seems like you're going to keep use that crank, get a strong magnifer ( 5X or stronger ) and check for cracks on the gears. Also use a pin or a very sharp scribe to feel for cracks too.

Now is not the time to be penny wise and dollar foolish
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Farmallgray
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Re: 129 Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by Farmallgray »

Jerry,
If you want it to run for a long time, I would replace the rod, the rings and the piston pin clips. I would measure everything while it's apart to see if it's within specs. Then if it is out of spec, replace what needs replacing.


If your budget is really tight, only do the rod, but it may use oil. I was taught that anytime you remove a piston, you should put it back in with new rings or it may use oil.

I would not trust a welded dipper and I had the same thought as Jeff about the distortion.
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J Hayes
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Re: 129 Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by J Hayes »

Jerry I would go with farmallgrays' advice.
I didn't and now I have a smoker. definitely worth doing right once, than having to redo it.
My mind wants a Divorce ?? .

Jerry H
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Re: 129 Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by Jerry H »

Thanks guys,

I can't disagree with what you say. I appreciate all the replies.

A winter project....

Jerry
Retired and lovin' it......

PTWannaHave
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Re: Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by PTWannaHave »

Hello all,

I know this is an older thread, but since my issue is 'engine (internal) repair' related, I thought I would continue this thread (which I read looking for an answer) rather than start a new one...

I am tearing down a K321A (14hp) from a basket case 147 for rebuild. Everything inside looks very good, except the bottom skirt of the cylinder bore. The skirt (for lack of a better term; the edge of the cylinder bore inside the block) appears to be missing a chunk of metal... There's a ragged edge about 2in long by 1/2in deep, on the S/G side. It's my 1st rebuild, so I don't know for sure if it was cast that way, or if this engine suffered a major break in the past...

Assuming this is a failure in its previous life, is this block now only good as a boat anchor? (I bought this tractor which had not run in years and was 6in deep into the ground... Surprisingly, other than an exhaust valve which had to be punched out, the internals look GREAT...)

I'll send a pic later if the above is not accurate enough; I didn't have a camera in the shop at the time...

Thank-you in advance,
PTWannaHave

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BigMike
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Re: 129 Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by BigMike »

When you get the pics show a rule or tape for reference.Unless it's really bad or has a crack radiating from it I would smooth it up and run it.

PTWannaHave
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Re: Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by PTWannaHave »

Thanks for the feedback BigMike; here are some pics:
100_4342.JPG
100_4343.JPG
100_4344.JPG
100_4345.JPG
2in long by 1/2in deep.

It seems to my inexperienced eye that it might be OK with some grinding to smooth out the ragged edges...

Bye for now,
PTWannaHave

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BigMike
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Re: 129 Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by BigMike »

That looks like a candidate for a smoother up and runner! :beer:

PTWannaHave
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Re: Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by PTWannaHave »

Thanks!
PTWannaHave

PTWannaHave
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Re: 129 Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by PTWannaHave »

Well, since I was the last to comment, it is appropriate for me to continue with the same engine saga... I'm about 75% done on my long running project (4-5 yrs.), and was ready to cross a major milestone last night with the 1st firing of the (totally) rebuilt engine. All pre-checks passed. It fired (or back-fired; hard to tell) once, and then nothing. Turns over freely, but my untrained ear did seem to detect a vacuum leak type sub-noise.

Anyhow, that single fire seemed a bit hard and it popped the throttle linkage off the ball of the carb. No big deal. I also noticed that the small right engine shroud was shaken out of position. I took it off and sat beside my project trying to figure out why it won't fire anymore... That's when I noticed that one fin on the cyl. bore stack seemed to 'misaligned'. When I put my eyes level with the cooling fins, I saw what I've included as an attached pic... (The pic gets rotated 180 when I upload... The head is at the bottom of the pic.) It seems the top half of the cylinder bore broke/popped right off; you can see the sleeve (part of the rebuild) in the background.
image gets rotated... Head and bolt are at bottom of pic.
image gets rotated... Head and bolt are at bottom of pic.
engine_block_cyl_crack.jpg (892.85 KiB) Viewed 13778 times
That's a major setback. I'll have to eventually take the engine out (carefully, now that I cannot lift it out as per usual) and take the head and pan off, and see how many of my all-new internals are salvageable.

Has anyone seen this kind of failure and what was the diagnosis?

I might have to try to find another K321 block somewhere, and it may have to be sleeved as well. But I don't this to happen again!!

Cheers,
Last edited by PTWannaHave on Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PTWannaHave

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BigMike
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Re: 129 Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by BigMike »

You have a fantastic door stop :(
I don't think it is a common failure. It could have been started by the rod contacting the bottom of the cylinder.

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dag1450
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Re: 129 Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by dag1450 »

Wow...really sorry to hear this bad news. :( That does sound pretty bazaar for something like that to happen. What comes to mind is it may have got dropped somewhere along the line. Just wondering if u could include a pic that is zoomed out a bit.....maybe of the whole engine. Im have trouble envisioning (upside down and backwards) where this crack is? Sorry
127, 1650, 1572, 1872, 2072 . A mower, blower and blade for each.

PTWannaHave
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Re: 129 Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by PTWannaHave »

Hi Dave, I tried rotating the pic above; no luck... :? The pic is a close-up of the right side of the block's cyl. stack (when sitting on tractor). I'll include a few more pics in this post.

I got the engine out of the frame, onto engine stand, head off, but oil pan not off yet. The head has no damage marks of any kind. As you'll see below, the whole top half has popped up/off, and has also cracked front to back!! My Dad & friend suggested two possible causes:

- poor machining when the sleeve was put in
- the studs used to hold the head bolt may have been too tight at the bottom of their holes, and caused too much pressure when the head was torqued down (at 25ft/lbs).

Grasping for answers in order to avoid a similar fate again in the future...
IMGP5218.JPG
IMGP5218.JPG (2.56 MiB) Viewed 13778 times
IMGP5219.JPG
IMGP5219.JPG (2.6 MiB) Viewed 13778 times

The top of the block is now about 1/8" above the sleeve, and the latter 1/8" above TDC. I'll follow-up later when I've gotten around to taking the pan off.
Last edited by PTWannaHave on Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
PTWannaHave

dale campbell
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Re: 129 Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by dale campbell »

I'd say it looks like the original block was too thin after the boring to install the sleeve which made it very weak and left it break

PTWannaHave
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Re: 129 Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by PTWannaHave »

Hi Dale,

I agree it's a possibility; as per my 'poor machining' comment earlier. I originally farmed out the work through a third party, and left the decision about what was best to do to them. I will try to get another machinist (now my current one) to inspect...
PTWannaHave

Klapatta
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Re: 129 Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by Klapatta »

While sleeving of these engines is a fairly common practice it's important to note that they were NEVER engineered from the factory to do so.
Once over bored, they will then lack the outer cross section support material that for example a Farmall M has which is deliberately designed and intended to support one.
A sleeve is nothing more than a thin hollow tube. It offers no strength on it's own. In fact, it depends on it's surrounding structure for ALL it's support. Just try dropping one on a concrete floor and see what happens to it. Or maybe a cow will break away and get into the shop, knock it off the bench and step on it. Been there, done that :lol:
When say for example 1/8" of material is removed from the bore that external structure becomes all the more weakened. As anyone call tell by now I am strongly against the procedure for reasons of durability and strength. I'm sure there's a local phone book directory's worth of people who would disagree with me on this, well jolly good for them then. If I were out engine shopping and found it had a sleeve in it I'd walk away stone cold in a heart beat.
The 16HP 13 fin blocks are reported to have a very thick casting bore cross section however that does not apply in this application, it is a stand alone case.
One other thing worth considering, I'd not go pointing blame on the machinist for the failure, he only did what he was asked and has no way of knowing if any section of the bore is a thin as soup can once he is done. Wishing you good luck with your next engine build.

jpackard56
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Re: 129 Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by jpackard56 »

I think I agree with Big Mike. When pan comes off look carefully at rod and crank for contact marks. It appears to me that block took a heavy hit from something in its life.

Not that I don't agree with the post about sleeving, I just think this is impact related this time...

No matter what caused it, I'm sorry about the situation, sometimes even our hobby can kick us in the butt...
"Hard work denotes the character of a man. Some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all !"

PTWannaHave
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Re: 129 Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by PTWannaHave »

Good points, Ken.

I got the pan pulled off, but did not disassemble anything. Everything looks good and normal (and still moves snugly and freely). No obvious signs of contact anywhere; maybe I'll find some when I disassemble in the future; not on the radar until I find my next block.

Just might be a case of asking too much of an old, tired block... (I did however have the block acid washed to allow a good visual inspection as a 1st step.)

Bye for now,
PTWannaHave

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Tom Scott
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Re: 129 Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by Tom Scott »

Ben - Kudos to you for having a such great attitude after putting so much good work into something that failed. That same great attitude will help make the next one a success!

You will never know for sure if it was only the sleeving or a developing crack that caused the failure, but I would take Ken's advice and find a block that doesn't need a sleeve.

Hang in there, it sounds like you did quality work and just got bit by bad circumstances. With a good block your next build should be a winner!
:beer:
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PTWannaHave
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Re: 129 Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by PTWannaHave »

Thanks for the kind, encouraging words, Scott!
PTWannaHave

PTWannaHave
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Re: 129 Engine Repair Help Needed

Post by PTWannaHave »

dale campbell wrote:I'd say it looks like the original block was too thin after the boring to install the sleeve which made it very weak and left it break
Block machined too thin
Block machined too thin
20180227_171409.jpg (1.28 MiB) Viewed 13667 times
As my new machinist confirmed it, Dale called it correctly!

My new (small-time, home-based) machinist seemed to know right away how many 000's/inch you can get close to the nearest cylinder head bolt...! As you can see in the pic, the machinist who did the job should've stopped...!

After looking for another K321 block that are rare in these parts, and not finding one, I started to look for another solution. I discovered (as many of you already know) that the K301 & K321 share everything except the flywheel and piston. So, since my project is based on a 122 & 147, I decided to build a hybrid '13hp' engine using the K301 block with the K321 flywheel. (All my parts from the K321/14hp were still good.) After acid washing the block and having my machinist inspect things, all I had to purchase were new rings for the 12hp piston.

So today, I reached that milestone that evaded me a year ago, and got the engine running! :D I ran it for about 5-10mins while I was playing with the Hi & Low carb needles. No air filter & just an exhaust stub, and got it running & idling quite well (no load). Brought it back in and drained the oil, which was darker than I expected. I need to put a tach on it to make sure I'm below 3600rpms, and I want to check the compression. I also will loosen & re-torque the head bolts.

Even when I was done adjusting the needles (by ear, following instructions from a manual), I noticed that the engine puffs a cloud of smoke/soot whenever the speed is raised. Raise slowly - moderate darkening of exhaust; raise quickly - large cloud of soot. Exhaust seems normal otherwise. Pulling the (new & gapped) spark plug confirmed the exhaust observations; it was blackened a fair bit. Is this a temporary condition because a new rebuild? (If I lean out the Hi-screw on the carb (turn clockwise), then engine does not run as well at high revs...)

After I refill with clean oil, what should my next step be? (I'd like to get the engine running so that the spark plug is a nice tan color...)

Thank-you in advance,
PTWannaHave

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