Starter Generator

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Amflyer
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:57 am
First and Last Name: Robert Leppo
Location: Westminster,Matyland

Starter Generator

Post by Amflyer »

I am looking for a recomendation on a starter generator for our 149 cub. Bought a new one off Amazon last may but it is not charging properly now. The company will not stand behind it so the search is on. We just rebuilt the engine and installed a new battery and voltage regulator. After polarizing the regulator it slightly charges at full throttle, but turn the lights on and it goes into negative charge. I do not mind buying a new unit, just want a good company to deal with as we use this tractor all thru out the year. This is our work horse, please respond back in this thread with your thoughts.

Robb

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ksanders
Posts: 930
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:56 pm
First and Last Name: Kevin Sanders
Location: Sellersburg, Indiana

Re: Starter Generator

Post by ksanders »

Is the battery actually discharging to the point it won't start? Do you have a battery tester you can throw on the battery while running to see what it's actually charging to? Was the voltage regulator the correct one or aftermarket? Just trying to rule out other possibilities before assuming it's a fairly new generator, since that's the most expensive part of the charging system you can replace.
From the first Original to the last x82 Series... you can't beat an IH Cub Cadet!!!

DaveKamp
Posts: 555
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:19 am
First and Last Name: Dave Kamp
Location: LeClaire, Ia

Re: Starter Generator

Post by DaveKamp »

Hi Flyer!

What Kevin Didn't say, but we're probably ALL thinking, is that it may be working properly, but the indication you're seeing could be errant for some reason... and the reason why we'd think that...

...is because it's happened to us at times... :roll:

Okay, so the starter-generator's generating scheme is somewhat crude... and the regulator is crude as-well, by today's standards... but it's NOT by any measure something to look down upon. Mechanical regulators have armatures and windings, and work on principles of magnetic force, ohm's law, and silver-plated contacts opening and closing. The ammeter, likewise, operates based on magnetic principles and current flow. The battery charges and discharges based on simple chemistry. It isn't precise like a modern charging system, but it's simple and effective... like a chicken... it will survive and carry on through a nuclear EMP.

That indication you see... is it the Ammeter, or is it by a Voltmeter on the battery terminals?

If the Ammeter, it is likely nothing more than an improper connection.

If it IS functioning improperly, it's probably a matter of the voltage regulator being cantankarous from being inoperative for a long time. While they're frequently referred to as being non-polarized, the armatures ARE magnetic, and as such, develop a residual magnetism that makes them 'favor' the proper polarity (whatever polarity they're 'used' to)... and when they're new, that means they're not 'used' to any polarity, so they haven't quite 'settled in' yet.

The regulator typically has at least two sets of coil/contacts- first is a cutout (which shuts down the field when ignition is not on) and a regulator (which cuts out the field when voltage is too high). They are adjustable, and because of the way the system works, they're not usually 'plug and play' operation... at least, not like modern black-box silicon microprocessor-controlled smart-LCD-touchscreen technology. They need, instead, to be put in place, and worked a bit, watched closely for a while, and tweaked a little, before they're running right... and once they're working right, they need to be exercised regularly.

Delco-Remy voltage regulator docs are on the web, but even better- here's a great video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7CxU0AhJ34

Double-check your connections, and also... if your wiring harness is original, do NOT assume that the wiring is good, even if it LOOKS good. I've never had a Cub Cadet with original wiring that didn't have SOME issue or repair... they're not spring chickens. The wire insulation gets dry and cracks... moisture wicks from the terminals deep into the middle, and turns that copper in to furry green stuff... and you have a resistance or intermittant connection in the middle of a harness where you'd never see it.

Here's how you find bad wires... Get a piece of wire about 6' long, put an alligator clip on each end. Look at the wiring diagram, find a wire at one end of the diagram... let's say it's from the regulator to keyswitch... apply gator clip to the connection at keyswitch side, and other at regulator. Don't take the original wire off, just apply the jumper... it will effectively be in parallel (electrical circuit-wise) to the original wire. If the system magically starts working, you've found your bad wire!
Yes, I'm a Mad Scientist... but I'm usually happy, even when things ain't goin right.

Klapatta
Posts: 1352
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:25 pm
First and Last Name: Kenneth LaPatta
Location: Rockingham VT.

Re: Starter Generator

Post by Klapatta »

There is no such thing as polarizing a starter generator. When the engine is cranked the circuit self polarizes itself.
Multiple issues may abound, the first thing is to test the unit on the machine to determine if it's at fault. The long term opinion of these after market units is that they have a pretty good track record.
The field windings have two sides, one for starting, the other for charging.
Unhook the belt and electrical connections except the battery to ground wire.
With a jumper cable connect one to the battery + side. Touch the other to the "A" terminal. The unit should turn counter clockwise and obtain a very high speed within 4 seconds or so. Do not do this for more than six or seven seconds. It should then slowly coast down smoothly and quietly. The starter side of the windings and bearings are now confirmed as good.
The second test checks the charging side. Perform the first test over again. However, this time while as the unit is still rotating very rapidly, move the jumper cable promptly over to the "F" terminal. The unit should come to an abrupt stop. This confirms that the charging side of the circuit is closed and working.
If the unit does not come to an abrupt stop upon this test the charging side is defective.

Amflyer
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:57 am
First and Last Name: Robert Leppo
Location: Westminster,Matyland

Re: Starter Generator

Post by Amflyer »

Let me give more detail. I check operation at the battery with a tester the voltage is only 13 volt. When the lights are turned on the voltage drops to 11. When lights are turned off it goes back to 13. The regular is what I polarized. All wiring is been checked with an ohm meter and is fine the regulator is a ac delco unit from a cub dealer. The downfall is the generator is not a delco. Hope this additional info helps. Still looking for a recomendations for a good generator

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BigMike
Posts: 1351
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:45 pm
First and Last Name: Mike Andrews
Location: Niles,Michigan

Re: Starter Generator

Post by BigMike »

What about having your old one rebuilt?

Amflyer
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:57 am
First and Last Name: Robert Leppo
Location: Westminster,Matyland

Re: Starter Generator

Post by Amflyer »

No rebuilds not a good trusted shop in our area. Just looking for a company that I can order a new one on line

DaveKamp
Posts: 555
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:19 am
First and Last Name: Dave Kamp
Location: LeClaire, Ia

Re: Starter Generator

Post by DaveKamp »

See... therein lies problem...

Delco doesn't manufacture these anymore... so if you bought a 'new' one, it wasn't made by Delco... and probably not made in the US. Much of it are knock-offs made in China... they get there hands on ONE, then use it as the blank for casting new end pieces, housings, and windings. they use lousy iron, cheap bearings or bushings, low grade brush material, dirty copper, and miserable insulation, loose windings.

If you'd like one rebuilt, ANY reputable electric motor shop, especially one that specializes in automotive electrics, would be the place to go... and they'll be the best resource, because THEY know the difference between good quality replacement internals (particularly brushes, bearings, and bushings). The market is flooded with crap imported replacement parts, they know good stuff from bad.
In my area, there's a shop that does this all the time... Gillespie Auto Electric... Bill... (563) 289-4055. I'd be surprised if he doesn't have one on the shelf... but if he doesn't, tell him to call me, and I'll grab a used one from my parts stash and take it over for him to rebuild and send you...

but before you do that, do Kevin's tests... shorting (voltage should jump high), and also the 'motoring' test (belt off, power to terminals). That will tell you if it's actually 'bad'.

With the output you're indicating, it's not charging at all... nothing. Either the generator isn't getting field voltage, or it's not generating with it. Obviously, if the S/G is cranking the engine, it's doing SOMETHING.

And just as point-of-note: You can check a wire with an ohmmeter, and that ohmmeter will tell you resistance in ohms, kiloohms... megohms... but keep in mind that meter is placing mebbie a volt or three on that wire, and only a few milliampres. It won't tell you insulation quality, and it sure as heck doesn't tell you that the wire is capable of 4a, or 10A or 50A. When the wire is rotted in the middle, there's two or three good threads left, surrounded by green fuzz... that one or two strands will be enough to give an ohmmeter an indication that you'd assume satisfactory.
Yes, I'm a Mad Scientist... but I'm usually happy, even when things ain't goin right.

Klapatta
Posts: 1352
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:25 pm
First and Last Name: Kenneth LaPatta
Location: Rockingham VT.

Re: Starter Generator

Post by Klapatta »

Yes, Delco stopped producing them decades ago. There were several source suppliers for the aftermarket units, India was in on it for a while but not anymore I believe. The ones that remain are China imports now.
The field winding replacement coils that come from Mexico are very high quality. There's a supplier on eBay right now who has 5 new old stock genuine Delco armatures for sale so yes the ways and means for a proper rebuild are there.

Klapatta
Posts: 1352
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:25 pm
First and Last Name: Kenneth LaPatta
Location: Rockingham VT.

Re: Starter Generator

Post by Klapatta »

The ways and the means are out there.
This showed up on my door step today.
DSCN6907.JPG
DSCN6907.JPG (270.1 KiB) Viewed 5765 times
Now I'm going to buy them all. Who needs one? ;)

HFTECH
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:01 am
First and Last Name: Ray Widmer
Location: Apollo PA

Re: Starter Generator

Post by HFTECH »

amflyer----Did you ever get it fixed?

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