129 dies too easy ???

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BearKiller
Posts: 180
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First and Last Name: George Riley
Location: Poverty Springs KY 2018 Wettest State in the Nation

129 dies too easy ???

Post by BearKiller »

I have been chasing a few problems with the running of my 129.

I installed a new coil and that took care of the "die when it gets hot and absolutely will not start until it cools off" situation.

However, it still has the problem (and I hope I can explain this) where it will get in thick grass and decide to just die; it just doesn't seem to have any will-power to recover and soldier on.

Nothing I do to prevent it's decision to give up will convince it to go on and run.

Once it just dies, it will fire right back up and go on.

I followed instructions in the manual and on you-tube and adjusted the governor = no benefit that I could tell.

After giving up on the original carburetor for a number of reasons, I installed this new one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Carburetor-Car ... 2749.l2649

Note that they have raised the price five dollars since I ordered mine I only paid $24.99.

I should have got this new carburetor five years ago; it has a lot more power, it runs smoother, it idles a lot better, it uses about half the gas that it did, the engine definitely does not get nearly so hot as it used to; this new carburetor fixed at least a dozen problems that I was having; .............. however, it did not fix this deciding to just give it up and die business ----- I mean this thing is like a sheep = no will-power whatsoever.

Do I have a fuel/air problem or an electrical problem ?

Thanks for reading and all help is appreciated.

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cholloway
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Re: 129 dies too easy ???

Post by cholloway »

Check the compression. Sounds like it could be a leaking head gasket.
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BearKiller
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Re: 129 dies too easy ???

Post by BearKiller »

cholloway wrote:Check the compression. Sounds like it could be a leaking head gasket.
Thanks: that is one possibility that I would never have thought of on my own.

Is a Harbor-Freight compression-checker sufficient for this job ?

I have done just about everything else, but I have never checked compression on anything before; I guess I need to read up.

If the head-gasket is leaking, my guess is that it is not going to be as simple as just re-torquing, right ?

BearKiller
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Re: 129 dies too easy ???

Post by BearKiller »

cholloway wrote:Check the compression. Sounds like it could be a leaking head gasket.
Thanks again.

Since reading this, I have been doing quite a bit of nosing around to see what is available so as to be emotionally, if not financially, prepared for this eventuality; thus has led me to several questions.

1. In reading the reviews, most of the automotive compression test kits, including the Harbor Freight one that is just out of my financial reach, have statements to the effect that these kits are not compatible for testing compression on small engines; something to do with the bleeder-valve being located at the top of the hose and the smaller combustion chamber not having sufficient volume to fill the hose and thus work the gauge.
What are you guys using to test compression on these engines ?

2. According to the manual, the head gasket is part number 55160C1; I assume this is an I-H number and is for the head gasket alone; is all I might need just the head gasket; and, if there is a "kit" I would need instead, what is a Kohler number for the kit ?

3. Looking in the manual, it says "for head bolt sequence and torque values, see page 8"; I have read holes through page 8; and, if there are head bolt torque values printed there, I have not been able to find them.
The tightening sequence is pictured, and there is a torque recommendation for the spark-plug, but no head bolt torque that I can see.

althomas
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Re: 129 dies too easy ???

Post by althomas »

http://cubfaq.com/kohlertorquespecs.html 25-30 ft lbs. initial torque ,run engine 5-10 minutes and retorque ! Not sure how you would check compression on that engine with the auto. comp. release (ACR)

BearKiller
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Re: 129 dies too easy ???

Post by BearKiller »

althomas wrote: Not sure how you would check compression on that engine with the auto. comp. release (ACR)
Thanks for the torque values.

On EDIT: Before now, I was unaware that my engine had automatic compression release; hence, a vast internet search for info and a lot of reading has taken place.

Straight from the Kohler K301 engine service manual = it is impossible to achieve an accurate compression test on an ACR equipped engine; head removal and physical inspection is recommended instead.

Although not mentioned in the Kohler manual, at least so far as I have found, there are numerous references to making an air fitting that will fit the spark-plug hole, set the piston at top-dead-center, pressurize the cylinder, and then see where the air is going; this won't tell you what the compression is, but it will tell you where any lost compression is going.

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ksanders
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Re: 129 dies too easy ???

Post by ksanders »

On that tractor, it's very little work to get to and remove the head. Might be less time, research, and expense to just get a new head gasket, take the head off and make sure it isn't warped, clean out carbon and reinstall. Even if it doesn't fix it, it's good to clean the carbon out occasionally and will rule out compression as a possible culprit (unless the rings or valves are causing low compression)

Also, here's torque specs
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BearKiller
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Re: 129 dies too easy ???

Post by BearKiller »

ksanders wrote: Might be less time, research, and expense to just get a new head gasket, take the head off and make sure it isn't warped, clean out carbon and reinstall.
That's almost exactly what my wife suggested when I told her I needed a tool to test and see if I needed a new head gasket; she said "why not just skip buying the tool and replace the gasket; wouldn't that be a lot less money?"

Of course, she was right, but I dread her knowing so.

Thanks.

althomas
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Re: 129 dies too easy ???

Post by althomas »

LOL !!!! let us know what you find ! I add MMO ( Marvel mystery oil ) to my gas gan every fill up and have not had any issues with heads building up carbon on any of my tractors !

mortten
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Re: 129 dies too easy ???

Post by mortten »

Hers a link to a video on resurfacing a head.
https://youtu.be/L1jFtTzLh7o

cwcub
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Re: 129 dies too easy ???

Post by cwcub »

If your compression was low enough for it to fall on it’s face it would not start well. If the rings were shot that bad you would have smoke/oily plug and excessive blow by. If you head is leaking you should be seeing black oily build up from head. When you pull the head have a look at the valves. If non of these conditions are present then I would suspect the governor is not working. When you start in to the thick grass you should hear the engine respond as the gov. throttles it up trying to maintain engine speed. Also make sure your engine speed is 3600 at wide open throttle no load. These are the things I would be looking at. Good luck and let us know how it’s going
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BearKiller
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Re: 129 dies too easy ???

Post by BearKiller »

cholloway wrote:Check the compression. Sounds like it could be a leaking head gasket.
You NAILED IT !

I ordered in a new Stens head-gasket and waited for a rare rain-less day.
I had not attempted to start it since my first post.
Today, before taking anything apart, I was intending to run it and squirt some MMO through the carb.
I cranked and cranked and it never did fire off.
It sounded exactly like when you crank an engine with the spark-plug out, sort of like an air-compressor being hand-spun.
I belayed the MMO trick and pulled the head.

The head-bolts were barely more than finger tight; it is no wonder that it blew the gasket.
I found the head-gasket to have about a 3/8" gap adjacent to the cylinder on the side next to the fuel tank, between bolts 2 and 6 of the torque pattern.
I have no idea when the old gasket was installed, nor whether it has ever been replaced.
The old gasket did not look to be as quality a piece as the new Stens 465-328, neither could I see any evidence of it ever having a "fire ring"

After reading so many warnings about carbon build-up, I was expecting to find a mess; that was not the case, as it was as clean as a whistle in there.
I can not attest as to any previous treatment prior to my buying the machine some five or six years ago; they might have burned coal-oil in it for all I know; however, every drop of gasoline that I have put through it has came from the special no-ethanol marine/racing fuel pump and I have religiously mixed 1-ounce/gallon of BOTH MMO and TCW3 2-cycle engine oil for a total of two ounces of treatment per gallon.

I cleaned everything up, wire-wheeled the bolts, smeared a dab of anti-sieze (instead of the recommended oil) on each bolt, and progressively torqued the head-bolts to 30-ft-lbs.
It fired right off and sounds much better.
I let it run for about fifteen minutes and am now letting it cool down so I can torque the bolts again.

cwcub
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Re: 129 dies too easy ???

Post by cwcub »

Sounds promising!
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Klapatta
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Re: 129 dies too easy ???

Post by Klapatta »

Yes. Little doubt you located your serious issue :lol: Way to go.
I have noted in the past that a head gasket in the early stages of failure will often produce a chirping or whistle sound that my exist from five seconds up to a minute, as things heat up and expand the gap issues tighten up.

BearKiller
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Re: 129 dies too easy ???

Post by BearKiller »

Even after a couple hours last night, it was still too warm to my liking for the second torquing of the bolts.
It poured the rain most of today, but it finally quit and I managed to get out there and finish things up.

With the engine completely cool, I torqued again to 30 ft-lbs, gaining a hex more tightening than initial torque; thus, it is very important to perform this follow up torque procedure.

This is the gasket that I used: Stens 465-328 $10.42 from Amazon

I noticed the sheet-metal cover that shrouds the rear half of the head has big access holes over each head-bolt; I am assuming for periodic investigation of the torque without having to remove the cover.
I did notice the head-bolts seemed to be quite loose when I removed the head.
Is it recommended practice to periodically check the bolts ?

It is supposed to pour the rain for the next several days, so I don't know when I will get to put it to the test.

Klapatta
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Re: 129 dies too easy ???

Post by Klapatta »

A third re torque is not necessary, I have tried that a couple of times and never got more than another eighth turn. Like you I feel the moly dee is the way to go, it sets aside any future removal issues. It is a must use for the PTO screws in my thinking. It would not hurt a thing to go around and check them again in maybe a year or so but that's not really specified so far as I know.
Does the Stens gasket now have the metal ring? It seems to me that a long time ago it did not.

BearKiller
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Re: 129 dies too easy ???

Post by BearKiller »

Klapatta wrote: Does the Stens gasket now have the metal ring? It seems to me that a long time ago it did not.
Yes; the Stens gasket that I got does have a "fire ring".

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