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Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:55 pm
by DaveKamp
There was one room in her house that was always kept Locked...
it was...
The Garage!

I said all I want is the key to her Ferrari...

(because Aliens Ate My Buick!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp1F0AjFoqE

Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:18 am
by DaveKamp
BTW... I've got three of his albums on my jukebox system... and just so happens I was mowing yesterday (with hearing protection FM reciever on) and "Airhead" came up while I was cutting the south lawn. Thomas is a brilliant guy... as a session musician, he played for quite a few heavy-hitters. He was the recording keyboardist for Def Leppard's "Pyromania".

So I've been contemplating the process of HOW to go about measuring the length of the parts I'll need from this Dana 60. Of course, the differential is still in this axle, and most of these things are still perfectly useful parts, so I'm not destroying any parts that would still be useful. I have to disassemble the brakes, backing plates, etc., and get things down to a size which will get 'in reach' of a Cub Cadet-size wheel...

Once I've done that, I'll hafta decide how to make a 12-bolt wheel pattern fit inside a 12" garden-tractor rim. One obvious option would be to just use light truck wheels that fit... that'd be a 16.5" older, or 16" newer rim... and another would be to (if the HUB will actually fit) install a light truck wheel center into a 12" garden tractor rim. That'd be a great idea, but it MAY complicate mounting of wheel weights... and finally... will I be able to find a way to get BRAKES in there... I dunno yet... we'll hafta blow up that bridge when we get to it.

Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:37 am
by Klapatta
With these machines it has always been about traction rather than horse power. I have always felt that by the time the 70/100 series was on the drawing table they should have evolved into a 14", 15" or 16" drive wheel configuration while they had the opportunity and factor final reduction drive gear ratio and frame length accordingly by creating a machine along the lines as the Case 444, some power Kings, or the larger Simplicities. Actually 15" would have been ideal as it would have allowed plenty of room for automotive style external drum brakes and both snow and Ag tires were produced in that size in those days. Try finding a 15" Ag tire now, it's difficult but there's skid steer patterns a plenty. Miller has 15" Ag pattern in 7.6 but not 8.5 or 10.5. Perhaps this was decided against as it would then have been placed very close to the Lo Boy. In any case history has rendered it's decision.
I have been looking for a 15" Ag pattern in 8.5 or 10.5 for years, no dice.
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By the way Dave. I have to ask. Please don't get offended. Is this you?
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Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:03 am
by Klapatta
If anyone could offer me a lead on finding ONE or a PAIR of these I'd very much appreciate hearing from you. Thanks
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Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:22 pm
by DaveKamp
Klapatta wrote:By the way Dave. I have to ask. Please don't get offended. Is this you?
No... I'm found four octaves down, on the far right side of the stage:
http://www.identitycrisisqca.com/

Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:37 pm
by DaveKamp
Okay, so time to liberate some needed componentry...

Starting with the Dana 60, we remove the lug nuts and axleshaft nuts, lockwashers, and cone washers. This side I'd already loosened up many years ago, and pulled out the axleshaft to count splines. IIRC it's a 19-spline 'coarse', but that's irrelevant for this project... I'm using the other axleshafts, just need these spindles and hubs.

the axle's endplate LOOKS like it's held in with just nuts and washers, but there's a countersink in the plate, and each countersink is filled with a conical washer that has a split in it. When you tighten down the nut, it forces the lockwasher against the conical washer, into the countersink, making it absolutely motionless, which is rather important for a heavy truck- if it's possible to move, it'll move, and shear the studs right off the hubs. the conicals eliminate ANY movement.

So notice that the hub and brake drum are still attached. A full-floater is this way- it rolls without axleshafts.

Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:41 pm
by DaveKamp
Next... pull off the drum. See this big flat-head screw? There's three, and they hold the brake drum onto the hub.
To remove them, penetrant, and I use a large piece of square tool steel, lean and whack it with a hammer at an angle to 'break' the screw loose, then twist it out with a smaller screwdriver.

A hammer-type impact will work too. See the little dimple on one side? that's the equivalent of 'staking'... it expands the metal underneath to fit the countersink TIGHT, so it doesn't want to back out.

Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:16 am
by DaveKamp
Next is to remove the hub, which requires prying back the tabs on a keeper, then unthreading the lockring, removing it and the keeper, unthreading the adjustment nut, removing the bearing, and pulling the hub assembly off the hollow spindle.

Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:18 am
by DaveKamp
Now time to get that big nasty backing plate out of the way... some penetrant on the backplate nuts... zap them out with cordless impact, and a light rap with the hammer, and it's off...

Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:21 am
by DaveKamp
Now, the other side was a repeat, save for a few things... one is that the axle flange didn't really wanna release from the hub... it took a little coercion with a chisel in the seam...

oh, and here's what that hub looks like off the axle. Beastly, eh?

Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:23 am
by DaveKamp
Now... pause for a few critical measurements...

I need to know the distance of the wheel flange, from where the wheel mounts, to the transaxle housing.

On the Dana 60, the mounting surface of the wheel is 4-3/4" from the spindle's welded seam.

Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:25 am
by DaveKamp
On the RIGHT side housing, the Cub Cadet's STOCK setup put the wheel mounting surface approximately 8-5/8" from the TRANSAXLE mounting surface.

Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:27 am
by DaveKamp
Another important point of note... is that the Dana 60's axle shaft is a forged one-piece item, and there's a recess in the end flange, whose purpose is to provide clearance for the bearing lockrings.

Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:28 am
by DaveKamp
Another measurement I'll need, is the PILOT opening that the new wheel system will require. It's around 4.75".

Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:30 am
by DaveKamp
Next comes a quick visit from the cutting torch, where I cut off the old spring perches, and I made my cut right in the middle of where the perches USED to be...

And here's a look at the side of the cut tube. Notice how thick the wall is on this tubing? Yeah... it's strong...

Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:31 am
by DaveKamp
And here's the stubs, cleaned up a bit using a flapper-disc in the 4" grinder, and a quick bath in the parts washer.

Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:51 pm
by DaveKamp
So time for a little preliminary thinking-out-loud, and some eyeball and caliper measuring...

Here's the IHCC axle housings, one with axle in it (it's the broken off one, so the height is actually fairly correct) and one of the D60 outers with hubs installed.

Obviously I'll be shortening the outers a little bit. How much depends on LOTS of factors, and one of those factors is what I'm gonna do with respect to WHEELS.

See, the center pilot of the D60 is about the same size as the IHCC BOLT PATTERN. I'm gonna be either opening up a stock wheel, or (most likely) making a new wheel center.

or mebbie... if I can find the right 'stuff', make a set of special wheels to fit 26-12-12's and bolt to these 8-bolt hubs.

next is brakes. I haven't had brakes on Mutt since I built it... frankly, there's been very few times I NEEDED brakes, but when I did, it was usually because I had one wildly spinning wheel... which with limited slip, I probably won't see as much of that, except where the OTHER wheel is spinning wildly, too (as in, they're both in the air)...

But I'd like to leave myself some option for brakes... if for no other reason than just being able to lock it down when I climb off. Dunno how, but I'm contemplating it.

Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:38 pm
by DaveKamp
And here's a few measurements to remember:

OD of the D60 tubes indicates 3.125.
ID is 2.466.

That means wall thickness is 3.125-2.466/2=0.3295"... 0.330" wall.

this means the AREA of cross section is
Area of outer diam - area of inner diam
(1.64*1.64*3.14) - (1.23*1.23*3.14)
8.445 - 4.75 = 3.69 sq in
Now, this is fairly decent steel, but for sake of practical and conservative estimation, that it's somewhere better than 'basic', but not 'really good'.

Basic mild steels exhibit a yield strength of 29,000psi (29ksi).

A 6011 welding rod is so named because it's alloy exhibits a yield of 60,000psi. Likewise, a 70-series rod, or ER-70S welding wire will be up around 70,000psi.

Let's say this steel is bursting with mediocrity... at 45ksi.

Let's also say that when this tube is under a load, it's supported ridgedly at the axle housing, and cantelevers out to a wheel that's located 6" from the transaxle mounting face. That means there's tension on the BOTTOM side of the tube, and compression on the TOP. This is what's called a basic 'overhanging' load... it's like pipe sticking out of the wall, with a flowerpot hanging from it... it's just that the flowerpot is upside-down.

One could draw up a very sophisticated 'model' of the stress as it's distributed around the tube... with compression on top, tension on bottom, and forms of torsion on the side, for a simple WAG would be to say that 70% of the tube material is handling MOST of the strain. Where do I get this? Easy- Root Mean Square... calculus... area under a curve. It's certainly not precisely-perfectly-accurate, but it's safe to postulate that when bending a solid shape, the outer edges see the most strain, while the center gets very little. In the case of a round tube, the strain is greatest at the outside edges, and it falls off with trigonometric function as one approaches center.

I'm certain that many engineers will dispute the accuracy of my method, but notice that I've already rounded the numbers above, and I'm not looking for precision, I'm looking for a WAG.

3.69*45,000*0.707 /2 = 586987 pounds of force. This is what it'd take, at the FACE of the transaxle, to break the tube off... IF the tube was in no other way supported other than a 100% penetration X-ray quality weld.

Problem is, that wheel is overhanging, which means there's a lever. The fulcrum is actually in the MIDDLE (the axis) of the tube, and the triangle of leverage is measured from the CENTER of the axle shaft axis, to the MIDDLEISH of the area... which would be about 1.8"... and let's say the load on that wheel is 18" away... the overhanging force on the wheel would be multiplied 10x by the time it got to the weld on the bottom of the axle tube plate.

In reality,the numbers are substantially different, because the CONTACT POINT of the tire is out past the rim, and it's 13" away from the axle center. Let's just say that the wheel's load center is about 18" out, and 13" down from support point. That's somewhere in the realm of probably 16 inches or so. 16" lever acting on a 1.8" surface, that's a force multiplier of 8.8x.

Let's go backwards... if I did the math of 4000lbs applied to a 16" lever working against an 1.8" load to fulcrum, I'd see 32000lbs of strain. To get that, I'd have to have 8000lbs on the back of the tractor.

Does that seem like a kind of load I'd ever get to?

I didn't think so...

Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:58 am
by DaveKamp
So it's clear that I have several options with how I deal with wheels.

I could...
torch holes in existing wheels and slap 'em on...
Cut new wheel centers, torch old ones out, and weld new ones in existing wheels using same offset
Do same, but different offset...
Getting stock brakes to fit in there 'tween the new hubs and axle tubes would be a challenge...

OR...
Make all new wheels...


There'd be advantages to each... but at the moment, i'm considering building all new wheels.
If I did, I'd make them STUPID HEAVY... I'd include run-flat bands inside, perhaps bead-locks... fastening points for tire chains...

and if I did that... I think I could just fit the axle tubes with brackets for brake shoes that act directly on the inside of the wheels...

Hmmm....

Hmmmmmm....
:idea:

Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:44 pm
by DaveKamp
And here's a couple pictures to explain the size relationship... notice that the wheel fits over the axle and spindle in a fairly nice way... but there's not a whole lotta room inside that wheel for additional stuff like disk brakes and shoes.

Imagine, though, if that hub was sitting deeper into the wheel... to the point where the outer end of the spindle (and the axle shaft flange, particularly) were about flush with the outside of the rim... that puts the BACK side of the stud flange into the wheel quite a long distance, so that the ID of the WHEEL could very possibly become... a brake drum.

I'd just need to figure out an appropriate-sized shoe, linkages, and of course, not erode away a precious wheel.

I'm gonna need to do more measuring 'n stuff.. but first, a pause for station-identification... and change heater hoses on my son's Accord...

Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:55 pm
by DaveKamp
Okay, so for a few wheel measurements...

Rim maximum OD 13.25".
BEAD surface 12-5/8"
Wheel inside 10"
Rim max width 9-1/8.

IF I were to build a wheel to replace it... I think I'd start by looking for a piece of 10" ID steel tubing with at least a 3/8" wall... that's hydraulic cylinder material... 26" long or so...
then I'd turn the rim sections using 1/2" plate, and have the sides of the rim cut with 1/2" material, then slip it on, weld it good, then cut the bead profiles in with a lathe.

10" ID on that big tube means I'd have enough depth for the tire to mount (bead clearance, right?). Hmmm...

Or mebbie I can find some forklift solid-tire assemblies that have a 10" ID and 9" wide?

Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:35 pm
by Klapatta
Keep in mind that these gear cases are not indestructible. When a specific area is built up another weak link in the system will turn up.
A while back I sold this straight cut pinion gear to a forum member. He installed it in his turbocharged diesel Cub. He badly twisted that shaft while making a pull. Wish I still had the photo of that, but it's probably in my data system somewhere. It was pretty hard to believe how much skew he turned into it.
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I have seen stock ring gears with most every tooth buzzed off as well.

Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:21 pm
by DaveKamp
I totally believe that... and I'll be there's more circumstances of that happening that nobody talked about. :oops:

I'm totally prepared to bust stuff, and I totally expect that when I do, I'll hafta find a way to improve it... but at the moment, well, I'm fixin' what broke.

I'm certain that horsepower wasn't the primary cause of this failure... deflection during tight turns was the biggest issue. 26-12-12's with ag treads, loaded with fluid, packed with weights, in soft, but cohesive, grippy soil, making that semi-floating axle deflect inside the housing, was 90 percent of it.

Nice thing about a hydrostat, is that it tends to reduce the shock of a single-cylinder's impulse peaks... the big contributor to 'service factor' limitations. The Honda V-twin is much smoother, and probably a little stronger than an Onan 18, but I'm pretty sure the 15U hydrostat's high pressure relief will crack before it'll tear up the gears.

I DO know that when someone doesn't set up the gears quite right, or the case has deflection... that things will go wrong. i HOPE that doesn't happen to me, but if it does, I'll have learned plenty from it. :roll:

Tuition in the 'school of life' is expensive at times... ;)

Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:39 am
by Klapatta
Given that the hydro pinion shaft is much shorter than the gear drive pinion shaft and well supported at both ends such is hardly to be considered as a likely fail point. I was using the manual gear pinion drive shaft as an example of when things go wrong.
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The image of that twisted shaft is lost. That twist was unusual by itself, it's far more common for the upper to fail. When I sold it in 09 and he twisted it one year later that image was sent to me via private message over at the old forum. I never added that to my photo archives. A lot of vital info vanished forever when that forum got shut down :(
I think the thing here that people would like to see, the thing that is most important to me is the adaptation of a limited slip differential carrier that will fit within the confines of the stock unaltered frame rail width dimension. It's your project your call, so keep on it and good luck

Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:20 pm
by DaveKamp
There is NOTHING on Loader-Mutt that will ever be safe from the possibility of my plasma cutter, MIG, or mill. There are many machines in my life that ARE somewhat more 'sacred', but Mutt is a machine first and foremost... it does difficult, nasty, brutal work, not beauty-queen duty... it is self justified as means to an end.

That being said, that WAS a perfectly stock transaxle case before I cut the left-side bearing cup mounting point out... and it will have a stock ring/pinion, stock pinion shaft, and hydrostat unit. If something in that group fails, I'll rebuild it strong.

Making the limited slip fit into a case that is NOT cut... well, it won't be this one... it's just too wide... and if I were to take it to the lathe and cut away at it on both sides to try making it short enough to fit into stock positions, the result would be a case with so little metal left on the sides, that it would have no strength left.

The weakness that STARTED this, wasn't the differential... it was the axle shaft that broke... and it broke in a fashion that gave a substantial indication of something other than the axles just twisting off, or an end gear or diff housing breakng. Lacking the same parts options that pullers use (from aluminum SGs), and seeing that the replacement plan required doing machinework, I chose to use what I had.

Because of the circumstances, there is NO way that one can just put this diff inside a housing and slap stock outers on- the stock outers are simply not large enough to accept a 1.61" fine-spline axleshaft, and I do not intend to go through this much of an exercise, just to stop at the half-way point... I'm going the distance.

Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:19 am
by DaveKamp
Pause for Station Identification.... Please do not attempt to adjust your set... I'm not taking a break from the project, just preoccupied with some other things at the moment... will return, after these messages... :beer:

Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:36 pm
by Klapatta
I too am a member of the broken axle club and I did it with a stock K241 at 2/3rd throttle. Here it is going wewewe all the way home.
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Lesson to be learned here is don't push dirt with chains.
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That axle stump resides within the housing left cavity to this very day.
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For stock carrier selection the quiet line and later heavy carrier is a much better choice. It is shown on the right side.
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The best stock option is the later MTD carrier with 30mm axles and large axle tubes using the cast iron rear end. Failures with such a setup are rare, I have never personally seen one yet.
The 7 1/4" Drat conversion is another good choice as limited machining is required. With anything much more than a small block under the hood on the drag strip this was known as a weak rear end but in the under 200 HP range it works just fine. While it was probably offered as a limited slip option I've never seen one.
Lockers in that size are offered after market however I doubt any Cub Cadet could carry enough weight and or HP to get it working properly.

Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:06 pm
by chzuck
Some things from the IH Registry can be found. It is a site called The Way Back Machine at this link - https://archive.org/web/ Type in IH Registry and pick a year from what is listed.

Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:32 am
by DaveKamp
Sorry to hear that, Ken- was that just today?

I've never had issues with chains... I've got 'em on my 109... with ag tires filled with fluid, and the K201 is extremely strong in it's state-of-tune... I've never peeled an axleshaft on it. Judging by the tracks it left, it looks like the right hand side was trying to grab the road pretty hard as you towed it home... is that just from steering flopping over, or is something in the driveline binding?

Yeah, there's certainly a difference in the carriers... and the later fine-spline shafts have an advantage... but they'll always be semi-floaters.

The Ford limited slip is a gear-pressure driven device... it's not sheer horsepower and slip that makes it work, it's the fact that one side's spider gears are trying to be forced by reaction to the presence of torque, while the other side's gear is not. End result of having no load, is that it wants to ride outward, thus becoming a brake in defiance of freewheeling axles. I don't know how effective it'll be as an automotive limited slip in this application, it may be lame, it might be impressive... dunno, but I'm gonna find out.

Re: Loader Mutt Continues...

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:54 am
by DaveKamp
Limited-slip and locking differentials come in many flavors, and they're some very clever gadgets... they work several different ways, all trying to accomplish the same thing. IMO, the Auburn Gear design is probably the operationally most robust, but it's also an expensive piece to machine, as it has worm gears around the outside of the carrier, lots of precision surfaces that need to be cut.

This unit I have here, is a simpler concept, and works on principles which are simpler in terms of manufacture.

In terms of how it's SUPPOSED to respond, think of it as if it's an open differential, with a stout piece of rope connected between the right and left axles... one wheel can slip, but as it slips, the side gears of the differential migrate outwards, compressing the clutch surfaces between back of gear, and outside of diff housing. The end result is that it'll allow differential action, but the longer a difference exists, the tighter the differential becomes, like that piece of rope is winding up tight.