Starter or Relay or Something Else ???

Here is where we can talk about all things Cub and then some. Please follow the golden rule and respect others.
This is a free forum and all pictures posted here are for public consumption. They are free to be used as long as you are not using them in a for-profit manner. Also, any pictures subject to copyright or permissions will be removed.
Post Reply
BearKiller
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:27 am
First and Last Name: George Riley
Location: Poverty Springs KY 2018 Wettest State in the Nation

Starter or Relay or Something Else ???

Post by BearKiller »

My 129 was starting easily right up until it choked out in some tall grass and did not have the wherewithal to crank itself with the old worn out battery.

For several weeks, I had been having to jump-start it due to the old battery being about shot.

When it died in the tall grass and we had to push it back to the driveway, I decided to let the baby go without milk and diapers and buy a new battery instead.

I got the best deluxe hottest battery that the battery guy had.

I installed the new battery and thought all my troubles were over.

The new battery is showing 12.86 volts.

I turned the key and only get a click at the relay.

Before the new battery, whenever I often jump-started it, it would whirl over like a cyclone.

I hooked the big heavy semi-truck starting jumper cables up and tried again = the starter really labors to turn the engine over = it just barely drags.

I had the wife engage the starter while I checked voltage at the starter = 8.36-volts

EDIT>>> Updated Info: Voltage at the battery agrees with the HOT side of the relay.

>>> the relay was recently new <<<

With key turned to Start, the cold side of the relay agrees with the 8.36 volts that I am seeing at the starter terminal.

Given the evidence, what is the most likely culprit ?

How do I diagnose this ?

Thanks for reading and all help is appreciated.

JMotuzick
Moderator
Posts: 1172
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:22 pm
First and Last Name: Joe Motuzick
Location: Torrington Ct

Re: Starter or Relay or Something Else ???

Post by JMotuzick »

Clean all wiring connections, including the ground which is through the fender and the frame with the same bolt that holds the fender on. Also double check any connections going to starter, sounds to me like you’re not getting enough current flow

BearKiller
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:27 am
First and Last Name: George Riley
Location: Poverty Springs KY 2018 Wettest State in the Nation

Re: Starter or Relay or Something Else ???

Post by BearKiller »

JMotuzick wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:58 am
Clean all wiring connections
I disassembled and cleaned all connections and checked the integrity of the cables = still no go.

I removed the belt and found that Goliath himself could not turn the starter by hand.

I did manage to barely turn it with a big Crescent wrench.

I am now rethinking things = 1. The old ten-yr-old battery may not have been bad after all.
2. Instead of the tall grass choking it out, the locked-up starter is probably what killed it.

This is the generic Made-in-India starter that I installed about eight or more years ago.

I have two genuine Delco units that have serious problems in the windings, but excellent bearings and everything else.

Does anyone know if the guts of the import starters are interchangeable with the Delco units ?

If so, I intend to rob the good stuff off the Delcos and put the generic back in action.

Klapatta
Posts: 1352
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:25 pm
First and Last Name: Kenneth LaPatta
Location: Rockingham VT.

Re: Starter or Relay or Something Else ???

Post by Klapatta »

Only one way to find out.
The chances are good. Knock off reproductions are just that. Likely it was manufactured using an existing unit as a guide, or their version of engineering drawings. Minor changes such as threads English to Metric may come into play. It's worth looking into.

JMotuzick
Moderator
Posts: 1172
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:22 pm
First and Last Name: Joe Motuzick
Location: Torrington Ct

Re: Starter or Relay or Something Else ???

Post by JMotuzick »

Drop one of the bad OE delco units off at a reputable rebuild shop don’t mess with the knock off’s I don’t think it’s worth the trouble

BearKiller
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:27 am
First and Last Name: George Riley
Location: Poverty Springs KY 2018 Wettest State in the Nation

Re: Starter or Relay or Something Else ???

Post by BearKiller »

I already checked on the rebuild shop route; this guy can work miracles on starters and alternators and has done so on a few occasions for me; he is the only rebuild shop anywhere around here that actually fixes whatever you take to him, unlike all the others; whether it be starter/alternators,radiators, hydraulic cylinders, electric motors, whatever, it has proven to me many times to be a complete waste of time, money, and effort to try to get anything fixed that I cannot fix myself.

That being said, several months ago, I had reason to be in the vicinity of this miracle-worker starter guy so I put both the old dead starters in the truck and stopped by there to investigate the possibilities.
I asked him what kind of money would I be looking at and he said "I have fixed hundreds of those and bare minimum you are looking at $150 per."

I am satisfied that he would do $250 worth of work to get that $150; and, when he got finished, they would be better than brand-new; however, a poor man oft has to take the low road, through all the briar thickets and swamps, so I left the starters in the truck and did not unload them there.

Now, the rest of the story:
This starter scenario is a complete mystery as to how the generic replacement starter worked straight from the get-go, let alone work fine for eight to ten years.
If I had not had the two old starters to refer to, I might still be scratching my head.
Like I already said, the starter was locked tight; it took a big Crescent wrench to turn it at all.
I was fully expecting the bearings to be shot and welded and the armature rubbing against the insides.
Figuring that I would need the pulley off to access the bearing on that end, I went ahead and removed it.
I then removed the starter from the engine and took it to the bench.
At some point during this, I noticed that I could easily turn the shaft with my fingers, whereas a few minutes before, I could barely turn it with a big wrench.
I went ahead and took the starter apart.
Both bearings looked and felt as if brand-new = smooth as silk.
I investigated thoroughly and could see no reason whatsoever for the starter to have been locked up.
I put it all back together; and, as before, the shaft spun easily by finger pressure alone.

Then, I put the pulley back on and snugged it up = what the deuce = it was locked tight once again.
I loosened the pulley-nut and it would spin freely; tighten it back down and locked tight again.

I got to looking and it appeared that the pulley was bottoming against the housing.

I looked at the two old starters and both of them had a bushing protruding from the shaft opening; my generic starter had no such convenience.

I borrowed the bushing from one of the dead starters, put the pulley back on, and tightened the nut; low and behold, I could easily spin the starter.

I mounted it back on the engine and tried the key = it whirled the engine over with authority = better that it ever had before.

Way back ages ago when I first got it, the new generic starter did not come with a pulley and I had to remove one from an old starter; at the time, I was unaware that I also needed that bushing; how on earth I ever managed to tighten the nut and the starter spin freely without the spacer/bushing is a complete mystery to me; yet, it did so for several years.

Lately, it had been getting draggier and draggier about starting and I just attributed it to the old ancient battery getting weak.

My guess is that, seeing as the shaft turns in a nut-tightening direction, that it had finally tightened the nut to the point of locking the shaft.

From all indications, we are back in business and good for another ten or more years --- and --- I never took my billfold out of my pocket.
Last edited by BearKiller on Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Tom Scott
Chief Moderator
Posts: 1762
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:11 pm
First and Last Name: Tom Scott
Location: Bentley Springs, Maryland

Re: Starter or Relay or Something Else ???

Post by Tom Scott »

George - Nice post to read this morning, thanks for putting it up! And you might just have saved someone else from missing the spacer install.

Your money on the new battery was not wasted, and you saved the starter for free. Nice win!
:beer:
1872, 46", 50C decks, Haban dozer blade, 450 snow blower
2182-1, Kwik-Way Loader, 3-pt & rear pto, 442 tiller
2182-2, 54" deck, 551 snow blower
Past tractors:  1541, 2135
<><

Klapatta
Posts: 1352
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:25 pm
First and Last Name: Kenneth LaPatta
Location: Rockingham VT.

Re: Starter or Relay or Something Else ???

Post by Klapatta »

And that is how you save a hundred and fifty bucks. Good for you. While they used to be everywhere the rebuild shops are rapidly becoming a thing of the past, it's too easy to just walk into Auto Zone or Napa anymore and walk out with a factory rebuild minus core charge. Our closest rebuild guy thirty miles away closed doors a couple of years ago. It kinda makes me wonder where all that stuff went. When it comes to the hit and miss magnetos and the other older stuff special shops become involved charging big bucks for high end restorations. Also rebuilding is compounded by the design of the newer units which are not service friendly anymore. Rivets instead of screws are the norm.
So I am to understand correctly that you placed the off shore unit back into service? The spacer collar you mention is very important and why it would run as long as it did without it is anyone's guess. It should have been included when new and possibly fell off in transit. Also, those drive pulleys are getting harder to find too. They are the first thing that lands on the floor when the unit gets dropped just like peanut butter on bread.If I see one burned up I will buy it just to get that pulley.
The import units are more or less identical with cosmetic changes to the OEM ones from what I've seen. Replacement parts for these units all come from off shore suppliers these days and the quality is much improved over what it was even just five years ago. The field windings are Mexican and the armatures can come from India or China.

Post Reply