782 Choke Knob & Cable Problem

[rjarvis1961]

Hello,
Hope all in the forum are doing well. Been MIA for a while myself. Can anyone please trouble shoot the Choke Cable knob not pulling out? Do I need to adjust something , or replace the cable? Also, can I do anything to replicate the function of the Choke to start my machine? Not sure where to begin with this one?
Thank you
Rich Jarvis

[ksanders]

The only adjustment is the clamp that holds it at the carburetor. I'd take that clamp completely off (1/4" socket i think). After the cable is off the carburetor make sure the choke on the carb isn't frozen and try to pull the choke knob while it's off the carburetor. If the cable still won't move it's frozen. Either replace it or take it off (9/16" or so nut behind the dash/might be able to squeeze your hand behind the gas tank) and soak it in penetrating fluid and start moving the cable back and forth until it frees up. I've gotten some pretty bad ones freed like this.

[Tom Scott]

As Kevin says, likely just the inner cable frozen inside the cable housing from some rust.  With the style that doesn't have an outer plastic jacket you might first try dribbling some penetrating oil on the outside of the housing and it will seep through the spirals of the outer housing.  I've been successful at lubricating in that way.  "Kroil" is my weapon of choice, best penetrating oil I've ever used.  Smells better than other stuff too!

[rjarvis1961]

Thanks both Kevin and Tom! I was successful in freeing up the Choke and Cable by using the Penetrating Oil. However , machine still will not start?? At times it spins as if it is going to start and at other times it just makes a sort of ticking noise (sounds like a meter running actually). Any suggestions on what I might do next? Right now it smells flooded , so going to leave alone for a while. Carburetor issue perhaps? The pre-cleaner to the air filter was pretty dusty/dirty when I checked it. I cleaned it and the area around and underneath the air filter as well. It was very dry for a while where I am when mowing. The machine was running great though?? Thank you as always for your responses.
Rich

[ksanders]

Can you elaborate a bit to help us out? With a frozen cable i assumed it sat a while. When's the last time it was running great? Reason I ask is if it's been setting the fuel pumps lose prime and needs to cycle a while to pump up. Also old stale gas could be sitting in that carb regardless of what's in the tank.
As for the "ticking", those have common electrical issues at the key switch terminals, battery always corrodes on mine, and pto switches get a litty loose. If it doesn't turn over, wiggle to PTO switch, clean battery posts, and wiggle wires at the key switch (ideally take them off and clean well if feasible). That should get it turning over. After that make sure you have good gas in the carb and check for spark. If no spark maybe the points need a little cleaning up. Let us know how it goes. That should get you pretty far in diagnosing assuming it isn't a more serious issue.

And I guess the more obvious, verify the choke cable is fully closing the choke on the carb. That would be easy to overlook.

[rjarvis1961]

Thanks Kevin! Back at it again this morning. Last time the machine ran well was about 20 days ago. I usually use it every 10 days or so, but it was not starting so had to use back-up mower last time. I always use fresh non-ethical gas. There shouldn’t be any stale gas in the carb. The battery is new this year. I also recently replaced the ignition/battery switch. I went through everything you suggested. The choke is closing and operating as it should. I had some washers on each side of the battery terminals that I took off to make direct contact. I no longer here any ticking noise, the engine just spins when I turn on. As far as a spark, I’m not sure how to test that? I did remove and clean the plugs with a wire brush and wiped with a clean cloth. The only thing I did not do is spray any type of starter fluid in the carb while I had the air filter off . The machine has a Kohler Command 18hp engine in it. I have to remove the gas tank and the brakes each and every time to get the carb cover off. I thought the battery was a bit weak sounding though when trying to turn the engine over, so I jumped it. That did not work either unfortunately. You mentioned Points. I don’t know anything about them, or where they even are located? Please let me know what else you suggest at this point. Thank you again!
Cheers
Rich

[rjarvis1961]

I meant remove the bracket that houses the gas tank in the last post, not the brakes!

[JMotuzick]

The spinning sound is probably the starter spinning but the gear not engaging the flywheel. My 1882 does this. The starter really should come out and get some dry lube on it. That’s a project though as the engine needs to come out for this.

[rjarvis1961]

Thanks Joe! Not sure Spinning is really the operative word for what the engine is doing. It just sounds like it wants to turn over/start , but does not. Going to check for a Spark now that I found out how to do that?! Thinking problem may be electrical in nature , but should also give the carb a good cleaning. Just have to remove the gas tank and bracket for the “tenth time” to get at it!”

[rjarvis1961]

Okay so latest update is that there is no Spark. That is , if I tested correctly? I took one of the plugs out completely and inserted it into the boot. I then placed the other end/tip on the engine block while attempting to start the engine . There was no spark. I then replaced with a new Sparkplug in the boot and did the same. Still no Spark! I then put everything away neatly and to rest, went inside the nice cool house and made myself a very dry , very chilled Beefeater Gin Martini Up! Needed a little Spark myself! Where to proceed from here … hmm? Please let me know your thoughts.

Thank you!
Cheers
Rich

[Tom Scott]

Kohler Command?  Are you sure it's not a Magnum?  At any rate, you can download the engine manuals from the Kohler website.  If it is a Magnum, very likely that the magneto is bad.  Pretty easy job other than you have to remove the engine to get to it.  Don't believe the posts by people that said they did it without removing the engine, you must remove the engine to get proper access to removing the tin shrouds.

[rjarvis1961]

Thanks Tom! The cover on the air filter compartment says Kohler Command 18hp. I’ll check in the actual engine though. Thanks for the heads up on the manual download and possible magneto replacement. This one may be beyond me as I have never removed an engine or done any repairs in depth. Is there anything on the Forum that posts or has a list of small engine repair mechanics that are knowledgeable about older Cub Cadets ? Maybe by area code or something? I don’t want to bring my machine to just any small engine repair shop/person. It really is a great machine.

Thanks
Rich

[ksanders]

Sounds like everyone else has you covered. There are no points because it's not the original KT17 engine in there. You have a magneto in there instead as Tom mentioned and probably bad if no spark.

As far as engine removal, pretty straight forward if it's still mostly original. 4 bolts up under the front grill housing gets the front grill and hood off. 4 or 6 bolts under the frame holds the whole engine plate and engine in. From there disconnect fuel, wiring, couple cables, and driveshaft and it's out. And if anything proves to be a hang up, a few pictures and questions on the forum here and we'll see what we can come up with

[ksanders]

Your engine issue must still be in my head because I just had a thought. That's not the original engine and you recently replaced the ignition switch. Has it ran since then? There's a lot of switches that look identical but aren't. Your engine might require a different one and be as simple as you put a 782 switch on it but that engine needs a different wire sending power (in a magneto ignition maybe ground).

Before tearing anything apart let us know exactly what you have or a pic or two. Just a thought.

[Tom Scott]

Kevin has an excellent point.  The original ignition switch would have provided 12V to power the coil with a points system.  The Command (and Magnum) use a magneto which needs an entirely different ignition switch.  The ignition switch for a magneto ignition replaces the "12V power to coil" with a position to ground the magneto to stop the engine.  (Consider the magneto as self powered, so the only way to stop the engine is to ground out the magneto.)  If you bought the "factory correct" ignition switch for your tractor you have the wrong one.

Look up a switch for a later model with magneto ignition like an 1872, 2082, etc.  This might be all you need (assuming you didn't kill the magneto by feeding it 12V through the ground circuit.)

[rjarvis1961]

Thank you Kevin and Tom! The ignition Switch that I replaced the old one with is a Cub Cadet 925-3021. It is an OEM part that replaces Prior MPN 725-3021. It says it fits models: 1210, 1710, 1711 (which I believe is a 782), 1712, 1912, 1914, 982, 984 and 986. I did look at the letters on the original switch “prongs” and the new one does match up. The engine in the machine now is a:
Kohler Command 18 OHV
Model # CH18S
Soec# 62509
Serial # 2230711797

My 782 is:
Model # 144782100
Serial # 2050601U731530

I still have the old ignition switch. It worked but seemed to be getting on (springs /usage etc probably) , so I replaced it thinking that was my initial problem with the engine not cranking/starting. At the same time though, the choke knob and cable was frozen. Thinking it’s possible, now that I have the choke freed up, that I can put the old ignition switch back in and see if that does it? Perhaps , as you said, I did not order the correct ignition switch after all?

Please let me know what you think?

Thank you both very much once again!
Cheers
Rich

[ksanders]

If the old one still worked and it hasn't started since you replaced it, I'd definitely put it back in and see what happens. Its been quite a few years since I messed with a Command, but it probably doesn't take the same switch as the tractors you listed (which had KT17s or Onans with coils on the 982)

And another wrinkle is there used to be a way to throw a relay in the system when putting a Magnum engine in a 782. If someone did the same on your Command to make it work with existing wiring, that could be the right switch after all. Been a lot of years for me with all that though.

[rjarvis1961]

Okay, so put the old ignition switch back in and found out that it is definitely shot, which is why I bought the new one. Thinking though that I bought the “factory” ignition switch for the original motor in the 782. I’ll have to search for the compatible ignition switch for the Kohler Command 18hp that’s in the tractor now. Guessing I should order that and try it first before going the new magneto route? Or do you suggest ordering both ? Please let me know what you think?

Thank you!
Cheers

[rjarvis1961]

When it comes to ordering the parts needed I am very confused right now. Can anyone suggest a process that’s direct and successful? It appears that I need an ignition switch that is compatible with the current engine in my 782 , not the original switch for the original engine. I may also need to order the magneto . Again , not sure on ordering this part either? Thank you in advance…

[JMotuzick]

I would compare the schematic for the 782 and your harness. If someone changed the harness with the engine and key switch then order a switch from a 1811. If they added a relay to your harness, then use the switch you already bought. I believe the ch18 has a white wire going to the coils, unplug the tractor from the engine and verify that white white goes down to the flywheel and coils. If that wire has nothing from the tractor hooked to it, crank the engine over and check for spark.

You and the tractor are both in cooperstown? I’m thinking I might be headed to Oneonta in the next few weeks for a day trip…. If I do I’ll try to pencil in a few minutes for troubleshooting.

[JMotuzick]

Scratch that trip to Oneonta, the item I was look g at sold….

[rjarvis1961]

Thank you Joe! I have a buddy who’s a bit more knowledgeable about these things. I believe he’ll have a pretty good idea once he reviews the thread /responses of everyone so far about my situation. Appreciate the offer to troubleshoot too, if you were going to be in my area! I split time between Cooperstown /Springfield NY and Greenfield Center NY near Saratoga . The tractor is actually in Greenfield Center. If you’re every at the Saratoga Race Track , you’ll be very close!

May take a bit for my buddy to read the Posts and check things out with me on the tractor… I’ll let you know how I/we make out.

Thanks
Rich

[rjarvis1961]

Good morning! Back again with a follow up. Was able to remove the magnetos. Cleaned them up real well and checked again for Spark … none. About to order a two pack of new ones. Would like to know opinions / philosophies on Genuine OEM parts ($129) vs non- genuine OEM parts ($27), since the range in prices is pretty extreme. Thank you
Cheers

[ksanders]

I'm honestly not terribly familiar with that engine but I'd be skeptical two magnetos went bad simultaneously. I personally didn't even know that engine had two so not the expert there. I'd be ruling out any and all wiring and electrical possibilities first. You can probably even Ohm test the magnetos but i just don't know the engine enough to help or say for sure.

That said if you want to try replacing them, I'd avoid the cheap Chinese magnetos but be using that part number to find something less than $129 or a quality Stens aftermarket if available.

[rjarvis1961]

Thank you Kevin for the feedback. My initial thought was to go with the cheap ones only because I am unsure that is what the issue is . I figured if something is causing the magneto(s) to fail and the new ones fail again, I wouldn’t be losing that much $$. As I do not know anything about all the wiring and electrical possibilities, I just thought starting with the inexpensive Magneto(s), with fingers crossed , luckily could be the solution? Thank you .

Rich

[rjarvis1961]

Well… at this point I need to find someone who is experienced with Kohler Command engines and 782’s.
Magnetos we’re replaced today with new ones and engine still did not start. It turns , but won’t start . There is still no spark either as that was tested with the old and a new plug. Could still be the ignition/battery switch I imagine, but can not find anything else that matches up like the one I bought for a model 1711 (has 5 prongs with same letters and order that the old/worn out one has). The ignition harness on the machine is for a 5 prong switch. Don’t know enough about relays etc. to tell if the previous owner retro fitted to accept the switch I bought , which was for a 1711 ? Thinking I need a small engine person now ? Hopefully the bleeding won’t be so bad?!
Cheers
Rich

[ksanders]

At this point without seeing what you have in person or detailed pics, I'm not sure what else anyone can know for it. It's not all original so it could be any kind of system. I'm still a believer it's wiring with a somewhat strong possibility it could be the wrong switch.

It's only a 5 position switch so I guess you can troubleshoot that. You have power in and power to the solenoid to turn the engine over so 2 of 5 wires are right. Do the lights come on in the first position? If yes then 3 of 5 are right. If not you've narrowed it down. One is probably power to the mower deck pto. Does it engage with the key on and flipping PTO switch and then turn off when the key is flipped off? Last is probably a ground to the magnetos. Again all this just guess.

[rjarvis1961]

Thank you Kevin and thanks for sticking with me on this. As you say it could be any kind of system. I need someone who can take a look and say “hmm … I see what the last person did” … and go from there. To boot I notice that when I move the forward, reverse and neutral knob/lever around and back into neutral again is when the engine will seem to try and turn over. Do you think there could then be a transmission issue also? I bought the tractor about 2.5 years ago from Don Debolt who was at one time a member of this Forum also. He certainly knew what he was doing and the machine has been good to me up until now. I just need to find the right person to check things out on it.

Thanks again!
Rich

[ksanders]

There shouldn't be a safety on the hydro lever unless possibly it's one of those late MTD ones. There was some sort of little metal safety prong thing added at some point but i won't pretend to be well versed with what it was or did. It could be possible your linkage under the tunnel cover is rubbing a wire along the frame or something i guess but that's grasping at straws.

I did have my 982 a few years ago just die while cutting grass. Turned over but zero fire. Checked coil, points, wiring, asked here... The works. Eventually through a lot of testing wires the rear pto rubbed a safety wire or something and it killed power to the coil. Totally different system than yours but shows anything is possible i guess.

On a side note if you don't know anyone, learning to use a test light is a simple and valuable tool for troubleshooting.

[JMotuzick]

Just a warning I skimmed the last few posts….

Unplug the engine from the tractor!
Attempt to start engine, provided you don’t un-wire the starter it will crank over. This will let you oinow if it’s coil or tractor.
My vote is a key switch issue