Ethanol problems

[dag1450]

I have heard over the last couple of yrs about some of the ethanol problems but never did any more than use sta-bil in the winter. Last night i had a friend over and we went out to the shop and looked at a few of the new toys. I was telling him about the one snow blower that i removed about 8 oz of water from the gas tank. Then he started to tell me about his problems with the only piece of power equipment that he owns, a hand held leaf blower. He bought it new about 2 yrs ago and went to use it this fall and it did not run, he took it back to the dealer and they say the fuel line is deformed and rotted off from the ethanol in the fuel. I now did some internet research on this topic and its crazy. Tom gave me a list of alcohol free stations in the post "i did not want it" and found there is one right around the corner from me. I will be calling them tomorrow to find out if they have this fuel. Im now sitting on about 15 gal of 10% ethanol which i guess will go in the cars. Im thinking i will treat the new fuel with sta-bil, drain all the tanks and refill with the "good stuff", Im not planning to remove carbs at this point because there are about 10-12 of them in the barn. Dave

[stevet]

Dave, one thing you may want to look into is premium gas. in our area, there either isn't any ethanol or very little of it. i have been running 93 octane with very good luck for about the last year and a half. the other thing i've done on my cubs is put an inline shut off that's easily accessible so i can run the carb dry if i know i'll be storing them for awhile.

[Racenitro]

Do not use the RED Sta-Bil....Use the Blue Sta-Bil.....it is formulated to handle the ethanol problem.

This government gasoline has a shelf life of less than 60 days.

Run a chromatograph of it and compare to feed stock gasoline and you can see the JUNK that is in it......
The amount of additives is huge.....


Non-ethanol regular that is not highly formulated has a few peaks throughout the run...Ethanol based gasoline looks like a big fat line over the entire run.....

[Klapatta]

I have been using Star Tron for several years now with very good results

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I always keep 30 or 35 gallons of gasoline on hand meant just for use for the generator stored away in a secure metal cabinet.
Once a year around the Fall I will change it out and pour the old batch right into one of my cars or truck. It has always smelled fresh with no problems in the autos however I'd not expect it to last any longer than that
The formulation however is not the same as Stabil, Star Tron is an enzyme, they probably do not mix well at all

[stevet]

I've also been using the star tron as well. it was reccomended to me at a repair shop i went to. it's a little pricier, but they also have rebates at times as well. i too have had good luck so far.

[Klapatta]

I'm not a clean freak however I wash my hands every time I have to handle that stuff.
Without sufficient warning information provided on the label I'm of the opinion it's far more toxic than Stabil even tough it has a neutral texture and smell.
If it's an enzyme that's able to kill bacteria in alcohol mixed with gasoline I sure don't want that yeasty stuff in me

Sadly as time progresses and more modern cars and light trucks hit the roads replacing older rolling stock some sort of executive decision ( from wherever) will see that we all have our share of 15% ethanol blend, metal gasoline cans are being phased out and most every vehicle less that is than 15 years old has a plastic gas tank underneath- and this will never change back again.
We have ONE gas station in this state that still sells premium non ethanol gasoline and it"s 70 miles from my house

[dag1450]

Hot Dog ! I called the station about 4 miles down the road and they have it for sale. Its like 98 octain and about $8 bucks a gallon. I will use this in low gas conumers like tiller,weed eater,snowblower,pressure washer, and before storage on bigger things. Dave

[mmzullo]

Knock wood and I'm going to say it but I've had no porblems with ethenol in gas. When I buy gas I always put in MMO and Blue stabil. If I have an engine running funky and the float bowl is clean then I run sea foam or star tron. I never have more then 10 gallons of gas on hand. You have to make sure the cans are air tight. I try to put cellophane under gas cap to keep moisture out for winter storage.

[Racenitro]

If you do store ethanol fuel the only way to do that is to store it in a STEEL air tight container. Plastic containers will actually interact with the fuel hasten the fuel's break down.

Have done extensive research on storing fuel for the racing fraternity and that is what we found.

Storing fuel even in sealed air tight containers above 70 degrees will cause it to break down.

Example.

Once put some 100% fresh VP C-25 in a sealed container and put in the sun. It broke down in less than 30 minutes. Actually coagulated.

Did the same in a glass sealed vial and it broke down even faster. Tested like is was hardly gasoline.

[dag1450]

Just wondering about this "pure" gas. It is sunoco 260 gtx. There is some data behind it and not sure what it means, octane R+M/2 =98 , research octane =103 , motor octane =93 , can anyone clear up the octane ratings ? I picked up a big bottle ($22) of the marine grade sta-bil as this said it has a non alcohol water remover and the red did not say that. Thanks Dave

[Tom Scott]

Dave - In layman's terms (all I remember about this) Research and Motor octane are two different methods of measuring octane. (R+M)/2 is simply the average of the two. The street gas we buy is measured this way as well and is a direct comparison of octane (but not quality, as Frank will tell you).

Our low compression engines don't need this much octane so if you can find ethanol free gas in a lower octane that would save some money. The higher octane won't hurt anything, your just paying for quality that won't help these engines.

If you buy the ethanol crap, it pays to buy higher octane because they rely on the ethanol to increase the octane of the base crap gas they start with. As the gas ages you lose octane.

Frank, forgive me if my layman's explanation is off, but I think I got it mostly right.

[Racenitro]

Scott:
You did good.


Try this link for Sunoco 260 GTZ. It is a Racing Fuel that is a derivative of the old Sunoco 260 which was leaded.

This link explains it pretty clearly.

http://racegas.com/fuel/8

Also this site will give you comparison data for all of Sunoco's fuels.


http://www.racegas.com/

You can find similar data for V/P Fuels, ERC and Torco.

[D Nafziger]

Here is what you need to do, go to your local Stihl Chain saw dealer and purchase Motomix, it is a premixed fuel for 2 cycle products. It is a high grade of fuel mixed 40 to 1 and the service man from Stihl says once the can is opened it is good for 2 years. Drain your equipment and add the mix start and let run for while and you are good to go. 1 quart is good for 4 pieces of equipment. If you use these products a lot only use the mix as a storage fuel, if you use them limited hours use the fuel year around and it will make starting a lot simpler. Check it out!

[dag1450]

Ok.....Ill break the akward silence around here. I finally got over to "Self heating and cooling" and picked up 10 gallons of 98 octane race fuel. Im thinking of cutting it with high test at the pump just to get more bang for my buck, im just not sure how much. Im going to use it in all of the carbs that sit alot like........... well most of my stuff. The gas really smells like model glue ! really. Let me know what u have done ? Dave

[Racenitro]

If you cut it with anything that has ethanol in it you are back to the same rotten fuel problem. Any alcohol is a water magnet and this is the first issue that it causes...the rest is interaction with the various additives.

Each Racing gasoline has a distinct smell. I used to be able to name each fuel blind folded but not now. Also could detect altered fuel just by smelling it.

[dag1450]

Had a real good talk ...or should i say listen with a retired Exxon mobil chemical engineer today while we were working one a contruction project at church. He said the sweet glue smell is from the "Tolene" and the "Xylene and will get u high from smelling it to long. He was saying the higher the octane the less "junk" paraffins or olefins the fuel has in it to break down. For storage he said at higher temps fuel will "breakdown" faster and at lower temps or cold the alcohol will attract moisture. So what i gathered from what did not go over my head was to buy the hight octane and store it at room temp. Oh yea and "octane" is a rating or measure of "knocking"of a piston. This is all second hand smoke so do what u will, but i had a lot of fun listening to a really smart old man Dave

[Tom Scott]

I've typed it in other threads, so sorry if I am repeating myself for some... Begin rambling rant...

You don't need 98 octane for these engines; you don't even need 93. But...you would really be best to have ethanol free gas, due to the destructive nature of alcohol and the water attraction issue.

Go back to http://pure-gas.org/ and see if you can find someone selling lower cost ethanol free fuel of any octane 87 or better for these engines. If you have any high performance 2 strokes like pro chainsaws (or snowmobiles ) I would want at least 91 octane. If you have to drive further to get it, buy more cans and go less often. You can store ethanol free fuel for at least a year if stored correctly.

Ethanol poisoned or not, all fuel will do best in metal cans sealed tight and kept at constant temperature. Temperature variations make your container want to breath and you don't want to pull in moisture laden air as it cools. There are two major brands of metal safety cans. I believe the Eagle brand are the only ones still made in USA: http://www.eagle-mfg.com/cans.html These are expensive, but worth it in the long run.

I have found these to be the best plastic cans if you need to spend a little less: http://www.nospill.com/ These plastic "No-Spill" brand are much thicker than other platic cans and the valve really does work much easier than any of the other crap "push against your fuel tank and break something" valves. Still more expensive than cheap plastic cans, but you are getting what you pay for here.

Also, sunlight is very bad for gas and can deteriorate it very quickly, measured in minutes. Obviously metal cans are better than plastic for this protection as well.

Every 5 gal can of mine gets 2 oz of Stabil and 2 oz of Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO). I started this when I used ethanol poisoned fuel and had good results. As an engineer I like it when companies tell me how their stuff works. I switched to Star Tron instead of Stabil for awhile (because Star Tron has a great write up on how their stuff works), but I didn't feel that my engines ran as well, in particular my 2 strokes after they sat. It bothers me that Stabil won't tell me how it works or what the differences are in the formulas, but through my own experience I feel that Stabil is best. I have heard that Stabil works by putting a thin film that floats on the surface of the fuel that prevents the interaction with the air above it in the can (or tank), but I can't verify.

Frank, if you know the composition of Stabil, how it works and the real difference between the formulas, I would be very interested. I have suspected that the other versions of Stabil beyond the original red might just have some oil in it (like I am already adding with MMO), so I have stuck with the red and done well. I don't think you can go wrong with any of the Stabil formulas, especially compared to using nothing.

Even with ethanol free fuel I now use, I continue to add the Stabil and MMO. I feel that the MMO is extra insurance with an air cooled engine to keep some lube on the valve stems and it has been reported to reduce carbon build up.

[Racenitro]

Dave...
You were given the correct info regarding olefins and paraffins. The smell is from the Toluene mostly and partly from the xylene.

He is absolutely correct on breaking down at high temperatures..also ultraviolet will break it down super fast. Higher humidity has a greater effect on water absorption since there is more moisture available in the atmosphere for the ethanol to capture.

Best way to store non alcohol laced gasoline is in a sealed steel container in a dark room at 70 degrees or lower. If sealed well, basements are great places to store it.

Placing gasoline in plastic containers and capping it does not help to prolong its life. The plastics in the container have chemicals that are similar to those in gasoline and they also breath so you get rapid destruction of the fuel.

[dag1450]

Thanks guys, this is good info and has been fun. I picked up the marine sta-bil and it says it has a non alcohol water remover. The red did not say that.

[mmzullo]

PLEASE DON'T STORE GAS/FUEL IN YOUR HOMES!! Just for fire safety .

[Racenitro]

I was not encouraging that...I used to have a shed that had a basement and it was perfect for that....
Actually any cool place will work.

Storing it in a shed that gets hot in the summer will cause it to break down much quicker...even if it is sealed.


One of my pet dumb things is the service stations that advertise "Racing Gasoline" and have it available at a regular pump that is pumping out of an underground tank.
Yep it is cool....but that is as far as it goes....usually there is tons of water/moisture in the bottom of the tank...the tank is vented to the atmosphere....
and it contains old fuel with new added as needed...
Results....Gasoline that is nearly worthless....The water is bad enough but add the exposure to the atmosphere and there goes all of the potential of the fuel...not to mention the reduction by combining good with bad...
But the price still High...what a joke!

Used to lecture to NHRA Stock racers about how to handle their fuel......as well as ITPA tractor puller running in the antique classes
Only put what you need in the tank...drain after use and use old for warming.....Always put fresh in right before competition.