An end to this and other tractor hobbies.

[pattonacres]

Hi guys ,time to post a little about some sad things going on in this country thats going to ruin a lot of things including this hobby.
I was hoping to make red power this year and havent made it there in a few years . I bought a new trailer in 2012 and only made one show. It been a combination of other commitments and stuff going on here locally with the DOT. I have been half afraid to tow anywhere due to not having DOT numbers. The main reason I didnt get them is I kept getting conflicting stories of whether I needed them or not since I am not for higher. I finally got them at a cost of close to $400. with door signs and filing the permits to cross state lines. I live 5 miles from Ohio line so its tuff not to go across state lines.
Law says anything for profit including tractor pulls (ribbon or trophy) ,horse shows (showing raises value of horse) ,tractor show and dragging along some parts to sell , stock car racing (cash prize) . All the stock car guys around here have stripped the sponsor names off of the trailers ,but when they make you open the trailer and you have names on the car your busted as they are paying to put the name on the car.
They have been really bad here with the local PDs having there own DOT crews now so you cant hide. Its really sad living in america that you can get pulled over for no reason and detained along the road and show paper work ,fire extinguisher,triangles,first aid kit etc. Its turning into Russia.
I dont tow very much anymore and dont think I have had a trailer on since sept. but I have a 1 ton dually that I tow my camper with and it sticks out like a red flag. They go after anything 10k and over on truck and 10k combined when towing. It was 17k towing but its now 10k.
So here is the kicker ,I thought I was good to go and got a call last week from the DOT safety review guy that has to do a safety audit within a year of getting the DOT number. He is calling to give me a heads up on what he will be looking for. He starts with " tell me a little about your co". I tell him I sell new and used lawn mower parts online. I pick up used tractors and part them out .I dont deliver anything or haul for anyone except what I purchase. Everything leaves here in parts .He then proceeds to tell me I need to carry 1 MILLION dollars liability ins. because a lawn mower has gas and oil and is considered hazardous. WTF ?? my truck has 10 qts of oil and 34 gallons of fuel and thats ok but if I put a mower on trailer its 1 million coverage. I called around and its about $1000.00 more per year + I will need to take it off of my own policy and move to my business name which I havent because I own the truck and not my business. Of course if i do that that means paying sales tax again on it to the state if it goes into bus. name.
I am not sure what I am gonna do. Thats a lot of sales to get $1000. to give away on top of what I have already spent.If I stay in state and get pulled over or stop at scale and they punch in my DOT number its a $400. fine if you dont have interstate filed which is another $76. a year so I kinda have to keep that since I am so close to ohio.

On to Red Power. As I said I havent been there in a while .maybe 4 years ago when it was in Wi. we had planed made to go until I saw the vendor fess where you paid by the ft. and the spots were 20' deep. My old trailer was 32' long + the gas .I figured it would cost me $1500. vendor fees ,hotel and fuel. Again thats a lot of sales to get that much profit.so we went on a cruise instead .
I got on the red power site tonight to look at setting up there and you have to have a 1 million dollar site specific policy to set up there. I have no idea what that will cost but I would guess $3 or $400.for the weekend.
I guess gone are the days when we all got together and plowed up a field,made some friends and swapped a few parts . Not sure I like where all of this is going but its a real shame .all in my honest opinion of coarse.
what will happen to these tractor shows ,car swap meets etc. Heck i have been pulled over twice in Pa just to swab the tank on my diesel truck to check for died off road fuel. thoughts ??

[Tom Scott]

Rich - I have no good answer for you other than to suggest taking a step back and arriving at the best decision you can make based on all the facts.

When you are hit by the oppressive force of government regulations it can feed emotion into the equation which will encourage you to throw in the towel. Try to take that step back and see what the best decision you can make is. How can you comply with the law with the least amount of expense and intrusion? Will that mean a different truck and trailer combo? Business address in another state? Pay what they want and push harder to make it worthwhile? I don't know what the answer is, but I know if I was in your shoes I would certainly need time to get past the anger to make a good decision.

Hopefully we get better ideas than mine for a solution. Check back in and let us know where you go with this.

Tom

[Merk]

The first thing I would do (if you haven't already) is get a copy of the dot regulations. I've ask some of the same questions you have and get conflicting answers. Pennsylvania should have a 800 number that you can call that will answer all your questions. I know Ohio does. Penn dot should be able to tell you the insurance requirements are too. Insurance companies are good at selling more than you need.

I have a 5th wheel camper that is pulled with a Chevy 2500 HD. Combine weight is close to 14500 to 15000 pounds. I haven't had any problems with the law concerning weight or length. I was told at the dot seminar I went to that I didn't have to open my cargo trailer when the law ask me to. I ask what will happen If I refused and where in the dot manual the information is.... the dot officer won't give a straight answer. I haven't been to Pennsylvania for 7-8 years. I heard Pa. cops are a pain.

I was a co-chair of Red Power Round Up 2013 in Lima, Ohio. I had to deal with the insurance headaches for the event. The insurance requirements came national directors and the fairgrounds that Chapter 6 used. We required all vendors and owners of personal transportation to have a million dollar general liability policy. The general liability policy cover you from someone getting hurt in your vendor space if you are a vendor and if you are driving a personal transportation coverage if you hit someone. There is too many sue happy lawyers that would be thrilled to sue you on behalf of someone.

Chapter 6 tried to keep vendor spaces cost down. You miss a good show.

The days where a small group can get together to plow a field and sell a few parts are still there. To do a show like a Red Power that has 20000 guest show up will need some protection for the host group and the grounds where the show is held.

[pattonacres]

Tom ,I have already complied with the law other than I cant get past the safety inspection until I get the higher insurance amount. If I get pulled over now I am ok because the DOT guy on the side of the road doesnt look at amount just if I have ins. problem is covering the extra $1000. as thats something thats tuff to recover from. I can sell my truck and get a 1/2 ton and small single axle trailer but couldnt haul much as the law states combination over 10k . 1/2 ton is 7k so that leaves 3k trailer and cargo weight. I think its a matter of time before they start nailing the 1/2 tons as they have been just after 3/4 tons and up right now. I would guess once they get these in compliance with dot numbers they will go after the 1/2 tons.
A guy who rents off of me drives truck and he said he hears in the near future they are going to make anyone towing a trailer have a stamp on there licence like a motorcycle stamp to be able to haul a trailer. I dont feel this is a bad thing as I have seen some pretty scary things with people towing a trailer that shouldnt be.
My point is not my anger as I have already complied with the law. What I see coming is the guys on this forum and others like it that haul these tractors or want to make a few bucks at a show are gonna run into some pretty hefty fines if they are caught.These small and large sellers are what makes good shows and if they dont come you dont have a vender area. The small guys are where all the good deals come from for the spectators.
Dale as of now they are not going after campers/recreational ,its still ok for 85 year old grandma/grampa to have a grey hound bus with air brakes. we were at the rv show in pittsburgh a couple weeks ago and looked at some of the 5th wheels that are 16k and you can buy one of these and tow no problem.no medical card or nothing just latch on and go.
I know pa is bad as this is a money thing and not a safety thing. I have been pulled over twice with my dump trailer and both times I was hauling stuff for my house and was near my house.They didnt look at anything on truck or trailer just said have a nice day.If it was safety you would think they would have at least looked at trailer brakes,they didnt check licence or if I had insurance. They are looking for dot violations which big fines. I went to the dot class they had here a couple years ago and they passed around some citations and they were all over a grand each. the single violations are a few hundred each.
I went across ohio last summer towing my camper and 80 was covered with state hwy dot cars. these are tahoes that look like hwy patrol cars but have dot on the rear .
my problem is I only put 4-5000 miles on my truck a year and that includes personal and business. I am not on the road everyday ,heck my truck hasnt been out of the garage in over a month.I still have to comply with the same laws as if I had a trucking company.I do qualify as a private carrier since I own what I haul. Local lawn mower shop picks up and delivers daily with a 1/2 ton and trailer with bus. name on truck and as of now gets a free pass.

[bbaker]

Rich ole buddy...

Unfortunately you are right and we loose rights everyday it seems. You're discussing trailers and trucks, but it's in all things. Some of the regs we face in all things just make me stop and scratch my head.

While I have nothing to add to the discussion really I do appreciate you bringing it up for discussion.

[dag1450]

Rich i feel your pain......im in residential construction and every year they think up something new. If its not lead paint its fire sprinklers or basement egress, amount of disturbed soil or state wide contractor registration.....i could go on. Like i said i sympathize w u trying to run a small business. But.....let me just play devils advocate here for a minute. There r some guys around my way who pull these kinds of stunts.lol Near the end of the vid, check out his trailer tires! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrWTZx62_o8

[VScott]

Ray, I wanted to share a couple of thoughts, and thank you for bringing the insurance issue to light. I normally don't pre-register for events of this nature, I usually just show up, but I will not be doing that here.

This is copied from the vendor contract for RPRU 2015

• The vendor shall maintain occurrence based general liability insurance with a limit of not less than
one million dollars combined single limit. Such insurance shall include Missouri Chapter 1,
International Harvester Collectors, Inc., and the State of Missouri as additional insureds. Upon
signing this contract, the vendor shall furnish the Vendor Committee Chairman shown on the first
page of this form with properly executed Certificates of Insurance which shall clearly evidence all
insurance required in this contract.

A few of my first thoughts on this are:


I find it hard to believe that any major insurance carrier would blindly insure myself, the state of Missouri, and IHCC Chapter 1. You would be renting a space, I would think that the event organizers, and the venue would have insurance policies of their own in place. I could see signing an insurance waiver, but an individual carrying insurance on a second and third party seems to be a little much. Frankly, I have a recent memory of an (unnamed) tractor show where the person in charge of the swap meet area was so drunk he couldn't point a straight line to where I was supposed to set up. (Don't think that I am offended by drinking, I enjoy a cold one from time to time myself, but there is a time and a place, but definately not when in charge of a major event).

Maybe this is commonplace, I am not an insurance expert, but honestly this kills any hopes of me renting a swap meet space to sell a couple of hundred dollars worth of parts IF I'm lucky...No Thanks, guys. The ante is too high for me. Do spectators have to carry insurance on, say, a baby buggy that they are pushing their child around in?

My comments are not meant to be disrespectful, and if anyone in charge of this event are reading this, please feel free to set me straight on any misconceptions that I may have.



I am a Missouri resident, and below are the requirements that the state imposes on all licensed motor vehicles, it may be higher on commercial vehicles but this is what the typical motorist in Missouri is required to have.

Property Damage Liability coverage of at least $10,000 to cover damage to the property of others caused by an auto accident. Uninsured Motorist coverage of $25,000 for bodily injury per person and coverage of $50,000 for bodily injury per accident.

20x this amount to rent a 100 square foot area? REALLY??? A lot more damage can be done with a car than selling wheel weights and carburetors.

I am going to contact the organizers to make sure that I am reading this correctly, and I will be contacting my insurance agent to see if this is even an option that they would offer, but it seems to me that this eliminates the small hobbyist, and the smaller sellers.

[Merk]

VScott,

The Missouri Chapter has a liability insurance policy thru the International Harvester Collectors for hosting Red Power Round Up. The part you posted from the vendor contract was not part of Ohio Chapter 6 vendor contracts when we hosted the round up in 2013. I'm not sure where it came from. I will ask someone who knows.

Who owns the fairgrounds? The State of Missouri? I have a feeling the state of Missouri owns the grounds and that is the reason for the wording. I think a vendor policy would act as a rider to the collectors and fairgrounds insurance policy. Keep in mind this is only a guess. One of the requirements to host a round up is the grounds must have insurance.

Spectators who drive a motorize cart or Cub Cadet must have the liability insurance on them to drive on the grounds during the event.

Chapter 6 had a waiting list for vendors wanting to sell items at the 2013 round up. We had a parts corral where someone who had a few parts to sell could bring the parts, put a price on them and hopefully sell them. Not sure if Missouri will have something like that.

The host chapter(s) of a round up has to pay $10000 to International Harvesters Collectors national board for their share of insurance.

[dag1450]

Vinny this is standard in construction. Any township i pull a building permit in must have from me the GC a million dollar (occurrence liability) policy or "certificate" naming them as insured or holder. Then any and all subs i bring in must furnish me with the same naming me as holder of there policy. Any business who does work or picks up a hammer on my site needs to provide that to me or i run the risk of being penalized. Insurance audits are no fun......they go though the books, see who got paid, then i need to provide that persons cert. If i dont have it.....i run the risk of having to pay the policy for them. This is all liability, Workman's compensation is MUCH worse!! Like i said, I feel your pain. Dave

[pattonacres]

Dag , Merk I understand where your coming from but this is no dif. than a flea market or farmers market that everyone has in there community. You can drive into any flea market or farmers market and set up tables and sell your stuff.No requirement for any insurance let alone 1 million bucks!! I would think if this is a concern you would need to stop all cars ,trucks or whoever drives onto the grounds and check there insurance. what is the dif. if a car runs runs over someone in the parking lot while walking to the gate or a vendor backing into there spot.
In my case I do this for a living and might consider it but I dont see a guy cleaning out his garage of excess parts going to an insurance co. and getting a policy.
Merk you mentioned a parts corral ? did these sellers have to have insurance? if not why would they be any different .If you are selling a product you are a vendor.
There is a large swap meet here locally for cars ,it covers the canfield oh fairgrounds with parts. they do not require this ,you just show up and sell parts. they do require proof of homeowners ins. for mobility carts.

[VScott]

Dale, Thanks for the info. When I sold at rpru in 2012 in DuQuoin Il. There was none of this. Pay. park. sell. I have more than just a few parts to sell. so I would have no interest in a parts corral, and frankly I wouldn't let someone else sell my parts. I realize the way that was written suggested that I don't have much to sell, but what I meant was if I take $2-3000 worth of tractors and parts I would be lucky to sell 10% of that. The enjoyment of these shows to me is the swap meet areas. I honestly have no desire to see the show area for the most part. I enjoy the interaction, or the art of the deal. Again, I have not contacted my insurance carrier yet, so I don't even know if it is possible for me, or if so what the cost would be. Please do let me know if you can find out any info on this from the insiders. Also I would be interested to hear if they have a carrier that they are working with to supply the policies for thus event.

Dave, I can understand this in an employment or business situation, but this honestly eliminates the little guy from the equation to me. The best swap meets are the ones where the little guys are getting their garages cleared out or getting out of the hobby. Seems that all they want is the larger vendors.

[Merk]

When I was working on a proposal to host the round up the national IH Collectors gave me a list of requirements to host a Red Power Round Up. One of the requirements was that all vendors must have a million dollar general liability policy. The round up chair(s) for the 2012 round up were aware of the requirements and choose not to enforce the requirements. Any show the size of a Red Power Round Up will require all vendors to have a million dollar general liability policy.

I'm not sure how the local flee/farmers markets and swap meets are getting by. I have a feeling it could get interesting someone or a group. It could cost some major $$$ if someone gets hurt and sues.

I handled all the insurance related questions for the 2013 round up. I lost tract of how many times I was cuss out because of the insurance issue. I did give the phone number for one of the members of the national collectors insurance committee. I was told not to give any phone number out after they got an ear full.

Chapter 6 had control of the parts corral. The chapter received a percentage of each item sold. The insurance coverage came under the national's insurance policy since it was a chapter 6 function.

[dag1450]

Hey guys... the only side im on is yours! I was just stating this is how the construction arena works. No one loves a good flea market or garage sale more than me, then u make that all tractor parts....can u say "Junk Drunk"! Man i love those kind of events! If u ad some hot dogs and an auctioneer......i will stay till the last item is sold Like said earlier its probably about who is enforcing the policy or not, and that could based on who has had claims or law suits thrown at them in the past. I know first hand , U only pay once.....then u turn into an insurance inspector yourself! Rich is right, shows that have strict insurance regulations will suffer from low attendance of sellers and if they r there the prices will reflect having to b "legal". I would think for vendors w non moving equipment event planers should have a policy to cover them, little different story if u will b driving on there property w equipment or tractors. IDK. I think we all know it boils down to the lawyers.
Here is a little story that makes no sense......I do snow removal as a subcontractor at a big corporate center that is the headquarters of a huge insurance company. I work on their property, i use a piece of heavy equipment, around cars, people and property........no one has asked me as much as my name! GO FIGURE! Now where r those boiled hot dogs.......... Dave

[VScott]

OK, Here we go...

1. I just got off of the phone with Kathy Perkins who is listed as an organizer of the 2015 RPRU. She gave me the name of a company that is used by the fairgrounds that issues policies specifically for events at the fairgrounds. The company name is Haas & Wilkerson. They are based in Kansas. She said that she thought that the policy cost about $70.00 for the duration of the show. Her contact info is listed on the vendor contract portion of the RPRU website. She was very polite, and helpful.

2. I called my insurance carrier, and spoke with them. Basically they offered a rider to my homeowner policy that covers all of the required bases to be a vendor at the show. I'm sure everyone's carrier is different, but the rider basically will cost me less than $5.00 (five dollars).

This puts things a little more in perspective. I was figuring that the insurance would make the trip cost prohibitive but in reality, It will add the price of a couple of gallons of gas.

I hope this info helps anyone else who was having a cow about the million dollars worth of insurance like I was.

[quote="Merk"] I'm not sure how the local flee/farmers markets and swap meets are getting by. I have a feeling it could get interesting someone or a group. It could cost some major $$$ if someone gets hurt and sues.

I handled all the insurance related questions for the 2013 round up. I lost tract of how many times I was cuss out because of the insurance issue. I did give the phone number for one of the members of the national collectors insurance committee. I was told not to give any phone number out after they got an ear full.

Dale, I hope you weren't taking my comments as if I was giving you an ear full or cussing you out, definitely not, and thank you for the insight and info.

DAG: The real give-away of a junk man is your phone. My ringtone is the "Sanford and Son" theme song

[Merk]

VScott,
No harm done.
I've been on both sides of the fence and saw the good and bad. I have a whole new respect for anyone or group that puts on a show.
It was an experience that I won't forget. The people you meet was worth it.
I've been ask if I would Chair another round up and my answer was only in an advisory role.
I wish I had your insurance carrier or Haas & Wilkerson's phone number when I was working on the show in Lima, Ohio. It would have made my life easier.

I 'll have to look you up at this years round up.

[vince_o]

Rich first off sorry to hear this, but I know youve been dealing with this for a long time. I was once told that if you can drive in Pa you can drive anywhere. I cant offer any more info than what weve talked about over the years. Like Dale said gety a copy of the regs from the DOT is like getting going over the wall in Berlin back in the day. I can only type for SC and NC, as this is mostly where I run.

In Sc do what you want when you want and if you get cought have a glass of sweet tea with the DOT cop and go on. I only know of 3 scales in the whole state!

In Nc the scales say All trucks must cross the scales. So here we go! One time when I was warming my chair in their office I asked them hey how come that truck pulling a horse trailer didnt come in. They dont have enough money to bother with. So I say if Im heading to the tractor show, 2 exits up, I need to pull in? Cop say you know your sposta pull in. Then I ask him, how come the big motor homes with air brakes can run the left lanes in truck restrictions and in the concreate caynon in tenn, but I can with a day cab truck and no trailer? Cop, you have more than 6 wheels. Me So dose the motor home and the greyhound bus. Cop, thats differant.

I guess it all boils down to how deep your pockets are, whos pulling you over, who you drive for, and how much of a smart ass you wanna be sitting at the scales or in their car. You guys know me, #1 smart ass dont care who Im with!

[pattonacres]

vinny thanks for the leg work on the leg work on the insurance. the red power deal doesn't sound horrible however thats $70. to tack onto vendor space,fuel ,hotels,tolls,food etc. before you make a dime.In my case I am not cleaning out the garage.I need to sell a lot of parts to cover the $1000.=$1200. or more it takes to haul a trailer to a show. Its not the first $1200 and I`m covered ,it might be $ 3 -$4000.in sales to make that kind of profit ,sometimes more.
It gets a whole lot easyer to just leave the stuff here and ship it then load it up and sell at a show.

VincO yep same crap I have been dealing with just worse. it was 17k combined now they lowered it to 10k. problem is you can read the regs till your blue but if you ask 5 dot guys you will get 8 dif answers and none will put it in writing unless its on the ticket then you have to pay or go to court .either way it costs money.
I emailed the safety inspector that is doing my safety audit and asked some questions. pretty simple one or 2 word answers .I figured I would have it somewhat in writing and I figured he is busy and it was an easy way to communicate. He called with answers. Thats the problem with this whole mess .
I watch every truck I see partly because I like trucks. I see tons with no dot numbers that get a pass and some that probably should get a pass .yesterday I saw a waste managment roll off truck followed by an f550 with tool body .both w.m. trucks but the 550 had no dot stuff.
I talked to a guy in tractor supply parking lot yesterday with a 1 ton and 20' trailer that hot shots. He said he hates passing through here from ohio but its how he gets to I-80. He said he just got nailed for a missing dust cap/plug on is trailer axle ,fine was $500. per plug . Its out of hand for sure.

[vince_o]

500.00

[Racenitro]

Exactly why I no longer have ANY cub parts for sale. The cost of doing business was way too high so I am now a former Collector.

Have 4 items left and when they are gone I will be history to a former fun hobby.

Everybody needs to do a little history reading about the rise and fall of the 3rd Reich! This is where we are headed ad breakneck speed!

I went back and looked up my DOT No. 226611 issued in 1982 MC165086 as a 48 State Contract Carrier.....it is currently inactive until I show that I carry $750,000 Insurance

[ksanders]

Sadly I'm kind of with Frank. I hardly sold any quantity of parts but did from time to time to dump what I had or parted a tractor every once in a while. Took me three months of back and forth with local and state police telling me to call the other one just to get a VIN on an old trailer to get license. Then we have a local hot-headed DOT officer here that will pull over a company truck every time he sees it and waste hours whether legal or not so won't take those to get any tractors. Lastly is PayPal rules of holding my money for fake claims when I offer refunds or whatever else to make it right and the people won't respond after filing. Held almost $400 45 days once because of no response.
If I can't sell off what I don't need I don't buy anything. If I have inconsiderate people harassing me because I won't drop my price the joy of meeting new people goes away. If I don't buy or sell I don't get new things and forum time and interest deteriorates. This was all happening far more in recent years than good experiences.
I still have 8 high priced cubs all restored and a farmall h and lots of attachments. Still have a shed full of parts I want to sell off but no desire to get into all that again. I still use my cubs some but no longer feel like much hobbyist to cubs and may even sell some of my rare ones soon and forget it all. Not what I wanted and I enjoyed the people here, on the registry, locally, and working on them in general but too many cons for me to enjoy it anymore. Hopefully I can get into it more again because it wasn't being tired of cubs at all that led to my moving on.

As for the DOT, that's any business and one of the many reasons being a business owner is heck. I have two business degrees with the intention of starting a small business and taxation of the little business owner changed my mind of that for good.

[dag1450]

Really i think the word "hobbies" is not appropriate for this rant....i think the word "business" would be more fitting here. I think most hobbies cost people lots of money and they still love it none the less..... boating, hunting, biking, shopping...lol. As a hobby/tool around the house......i still love it! Dave

[Tom Scott]

I can see both sides of it. I'm the pure hobby guy. The only tractor I ever sold was (thankfully) to a friend. Have only ever sold one thing on CL.

On days where I hate my job I think of the saying "Do what you love for a living and you will never work another day in your life." Not really true, but the point is made, try to do something you like to make some honest money. Then I instantly think of the saying "The best way to ruin a hobby is to try to make a living at it."

You get started as a hobby and get so good at knowing these tractors that it is an easy progression to buy and sell as a way to further the hobby. Then the next step is to get more serious about buying and selling and you can make maybe make some income. Then the government regs and business issues start sucking the joy out of it.

So I can see the point that the issues destroy any enjoyment of a hobby-business, but I see Dave's point that if you're a just a hobby guy like me, you can (mostly) avoid that.

I still have the more minor issue of my government trying to make me buy ethanol poisoned gas. Overall too many government fees and regs in everything, but I still have to find a way to do something like this I enjoy or "they win".