Metal lathe ...HELP!!!!

[Jlaws]

I've got a friend of a friend that lives close to me and he is moving to Florida . He supposedly has a nice and rather large Sebastian metal lathe which was made in Cincinnati that he'd rather not haul down to Florida . He's already sold his house here and needs it gone soon .
He's had it for quite a while with intention of learning how to use it but never did .
I'm going over tomorrow to look at it and need to know what possible problems to look for , since he doesn't even know what he's got . He's says that he's got a lot of extra chucks , reamers , and other tools that goes with it , some supposedly new still in boxes .


I tried to get a starting price from him but he never gave one , but he wanted me to make him a offer which I won't since I know nothing about this machine ,.

I'll take a camera with me and and will post pictures when I get back tomorrow . I'm new to this stuff and unluckily this guy doesn't know any more about them than I do . He couldn't even give me a model number or year it was made .

Like I said I'll get pictures and a model number , but what else should I be looking at when I get there ??

[Jeff in Pa]

Jess,
Look for wear on the ways ( also gouges, grind mark or other impact areas ). Make sure everything moves freely ( as in not rusted fast ). If you can power it up, listen for nearing noises and make sure the power feed works.

Pictures of the lathe would help a lot. I can be more specific if I knew exactly what type of lathe it is. Older lathes have babbit "bearings" instead of roller or ball bearings. Is it gear drive, V belt or flat belt? When was the last time the chuck was off? What kind and type of tool holder? Steady rest? Follow rest?

Jeff

[wdeturck]

Check what voltage it runs on to be sure it isn't 3 phase which is a problem.

[Klapatta]

Well, I did a quick search and they were in production from the late 1880's until the late 1930's so yeah wear could be a big issue. I have heard of them but never actually seen one.
The spindle ran on babbit bearings, quite common for machines of the era.
They were offered in an open belt or geared head configuration.

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[Jlaws]

OK , pictures as promised .
Everything appears to work and turns freely and its wired for 110 volts . Its appears to be a older belt driven unit and you have to change gears to change speeds . He showed me the stack of gears which you can see on the tailstock end of the machine in one of the pictures .

He started it and its real quiet and runs smoothly , in fact you could barely hear it running . He also has a drawer of new bits , reamers , etc . which you see in one of the pictures . What you see in the pictures is pretty much what he's got .

I still can't get him to give me a price and he wants me to make a offer . I fixed his plasma cutter and a welder in the past and a few other things and is a person I've known for a while , so its not like I'm dealing with a total stranger . I took a friend along who also know this guy and he also got slightly perturbed that he won't give a starting price .

He's still trying to sell his house and has a mountain of stuff that he needs gone , so I'm really aggrevated that he won't give a price .

I finally told him while we were leaving that I'd let him know something tomorrow morning , after I show these pictures and talking to a few people that know more about this machine than I do , but for him to expect a lowball offer ......LOL

What would be a reasonable but low starting price ??

Anyway , even if I don't buy it , I came away with a nice low back cub seat that was also sitting in his garage . It seems it wouldn't fit his old Wheel Horse garden tractor .
The only thing wrong with the seat other than being dirty is that the trims loose on one side .
No tears , has the cub bolt pattern and it was free ....

[BigMike]

Jess, too me it's a matter of how bad you want it and how well you know the guy. If you really want the lathe and know the guy pretty well, I would offer 500.00. If you don't really care and he is just a casual acquaintance offer less.
My guess is he is waiting to see how badly you want it and may say ok to anything reasonable.....he may take 100.00....you just never know.

[vince_o]

Paint job looks nice, but cant see the ways. My ways are badly worn, but Im quickly learning how to work around this problem.

Also like geezer said, if its 3 phase woull want to make or get a phase converter. I paid 450 for mine and a 4 hrs round trip to get it. How bad do you want one, need one? Now that I have one, i couldnt live without one.

I need a knee mill now!

[Jlaws]

Mike , I don't want it that bad , sure if the price is right I'll snatch it up . But it wouldn't be the first metal lathe I've passed on , but the guy literally lives 5 minutes from me .
He's just an aquantance that I've know for a while , not a friend , and a BS'er for sure .
He's going to have to sell it as his house is on the market , and I may play a waiting game to see how low it might go .
I don't want to lowball him to much , he's got a lot of cash in new bit , reamers , etc. just in that one drawer .


Vince its already wired for 110 volts . It would be used sparingly and most of the time would just sit in the corner of the garage . It does roll around rather easily on the wheels he installed on it .

I'm glad I talked to you guys because I was thinking of offering him $800 ....I was going by what seemed like a cheap price from what I've seen people asking for them but I guess that's too much ??

[theilmann]

I will say that when I run across someone wanting to sell something and will not say how much, I tend to try to insult them. They are fishing and probably have an idea on what they will take for what they want to get rid of. While they might get mad about your offer you simply have to politely point out the fact they did not tell you a price. Have cash in hand and better yet a trailer in tow to haul it away. I have never held a gun to anyone's head and have bought a lot of "stuff" at bargain basement prices. You never beat anything out of anything if they accept what your willing to pay. You can always walk away. Wants and needs are two different things. Good luck.

[Jlaws]

Todd , yeah I'm thinking I'm done with him .....He can keep it ...

Seriously though , who asks a friend if he knows anyone that's looking for a lathe , and then finding somebody that's interested , and not telling that person what price he wants for it . That's just not how its done , and I've never done that before......I know what price I want for something before I even put it out for sale .....

He's got my phone number and knows where I live , so if he ever decides that he wants to give me a price , he knows how to get ahold of me .
It wouldn't hurt my feelings a bit if he ends up taking it to the scrap yard .

[Klapatta]

If he thinks he has something excecptional he needs to think again.
If he tells you they don't make them like that anymore, well they make them better NOW than ever.
It lacks a quick change feed gear box unlike the ones in the photos that I posted, that's a big deal. A huge deal.
Tooling packages can be a real hit and miss affair driving the price up, you could strike pay dirt or get stuck with a ton of stuff you or nobody else will ever use.
Value ? Scrap weight times two maximum.
Don't get me wrong it well could be a great machine for part time garage use.
But just being quiet is not enough, how rigid it is under power is what matters.
I ran old clunkers like that serving my apprenticeship 40 years ago and unlike me they don't get better with age

[BigMike]

The two sides of the fence,
1) He expects you to shoot him a rediculously low number and being pressed for time he'll say yes.
2) He thinks it's a rare find and that it's worth gold.

Any lathe is better than no lathe at all......I learned that after using a flat way Atlas and then buying my South Bend.
If you have no lathe and you need one he is offering, what looks to be a serviceable usable lathe. It does not excite me that it was designed to run off line shaft power, has a lantern/rocker tool post, does not have a quick change gear box and most likely non-hardened ways.
You went, you looked, knowing you Jess you were ready to buy......sounds like his loss.

[Tom Scott]

Jess - I'm with BM. People can be funny and he probably isn't trying to be coy or insulting without an asking price. Even if he was, you will likely never see him again, so concentrate on whether you want the lathe at the right price or not.

In a deal that was truly fair to you, you would not raise your offer if he gave a ridiculously high asking price. Also, he may be overwhelmed by the short time he has to get rid of it, so in his mind he may be offering you total control just to get the thing gone.

So, I would just pick a number that is about $200 less than the max you would go. That will give you some negotiating room to make him feel better if he needs a little more. Just pretend he has already given you an ask that was high, and now you are countering. Doesn't really matter what his ask was to come up with what it is worth to you.

I do agree sellers should always start with an asking price, but I think you still can make this work if you want it.

[vince_o]

i dont think its worth 800, but thats me. Trust me youll use it more than you think. Rememberr we aint making partsto put or tractors on the moon!

[SWilliams]

Not a bad machine, BUT
No quick change gearbox makes it really aggravating to use easily. If you want to adjust feed rates to match materials you have to keep changing the gears.
The wheels seem like a good idea, except those legs should be bolted down and solid to ensure that the lathe bed is actually straight and not twisted or flexed.
Insert type tooling is usually good as the inserts can be used with other holders. Don't see any other chucks though.
Looks to have babbit bearings, I like that myself because once they are set up properly they actually create less chatter than ball bearing.
Seems to have surface rust which isn't a major thing but it likely means that it didn't see much way oil and care.
Parts and add on stuff might be very hard to find.

Toss a chunk of steel in it and run a full length cut. Measure it for taper and diameter changes. That would show you if there are unseen issues.

Value?? Depends on how it cuts and IF you want to live with the lack of "modern" features.

[Jlaws]

Its amazing what a few days of silence accomplished . The owner of the lathe talked to his friend ( my neighbor ) wanting to know why I hadn't called him back to make a offer .
My neighbor told him I wasn't interested in making any offers , so the owner of the lathe finally got off his high horse and gave me a starting price . So after a little dickering we agreed on a price and now its mine .


This thing is a lot heavier than it looks .
It took three guys and a mule ( the part of the mule was played by me ) and a come along and a floor jack to get it on the trailer .

It took three different guys , and a mule ( same mule ) , and an electric winch to get it off the trailer .

I'll be looking for manuals for it as he had none , I also know a guy who works in a machine shop that's going to come over and give me a crash course ....LOL

[Tom Scott]

Very cool Jess, glad it worked out.

You are getting a backlog of equipment to report on...we still need to hear back about the bead/cigar roller!

[BigMike]

Good deal Jess
First thing that would happen in my shop is the wheels would be gone.......I think those are a good way for that lathe to end up on it's face or back.

[vince_o]

good deal Jess

[Jeff in Pa]

..............

I'll be looking for manuals for it as he had none , I also know a guy who works in a machine shop that's going to come over and give me a crash course ....LOL

As a machinist, "short course" sounds a lot better.

[Jlaws]

Jeff , you haven't had the privilege of seeing me operate machinery , crash is probably the correct term .....
Maybe I should increase my injury and dis-membership insurance .

[BigMike]

Jeff , you haven't had the privilege of seeing me operate machinery , crash is probably the correct term .....
Maybe I should increase my injury and dis-membership insurance .

But have you derailed a locomotive?

[Jlaws]

Nope , never have derailed a locomotive .
The only derailment I've ever had was done in Queensgate when the Train Director (yardmaster) sitting up in the tower lined a switch under the middle of my train about 35 cars deep while we were coming into the yard one night . It was about 3 AM and he knew we were derailed before we did . It derailed 3 cars and we had to fill out a accident report before we put off on what had transpired .
The Road Forman of Engineers read our statements , rolled his eyes in disbelief about the part where the yardmaster informing us about the derailment AT NIGHT , and informed us that we were in the clear .
The whole thing got swept under the rug....LOL

[tc429]

congrats- watch ebay for tooling, caution- it gets addictive.

looks like someone swapped the handles- longitudinal feed usually has the handwheel?

like someone else said- lose the wheels... a engine lathe bed will twist easily- on wheels youll get bigtime taper on anything long...

if you can borrow a machine level(they show in half thou or thou per foot- VERY touchy) , sit a pair of 1-2-3 blocks on the front/rear slide flats, lay the level across, close to chuck, crank saddle close to that to get all the weight there... level headstock by adjusting bolts in the headstock feet... move level/blocks to the tailstock end, crank saddle that way to make it heavy, dont be surprised if its off the scale- they twist easily...adjust feet there to get it level. recheck headstock, shouldnt have moved, then check in center- with any luck, it will match- if not, she's bowed and not a whole lot you can do about that- but with the twist out, should be good as it gets...

lateral level on most machines makes little functional difference except tiny oil level changes- but a good idea to get it that way too- just turn the level lengthwise, mark and raise/lower both tailstock screws same amounts to get it level, then recheck twist at tail end

if you cant get ahold of a machine level-
take off the wheels, get it sitting level- use the bolts in the 'feet' to get weight supported fairly evenly on all four...
stick mag base on the chuck, move tailstock close to spindle as you can and spin the chuck, looking for runout relative the tailstock... hopefully up/down will be near zero unless bed is worn, then there should be some setscrews in the lower part of the tailstock housing- loosen the dovetail lock a little, and jack the front/rear tailstock setscrews to get it to indicate as close to zero as possible... get a length of 1" drill rod at your local nut/bolt house, chuck it up short and indicate in, center drill it, then extend it all the way, chucking long, indicate in, and put the tailstock center in it, set your indicator to run from saddle to side of the rod, and crank it full travel back and forth, should run zero- if not, try jacking the screws at the feet on the tail end to 'twist' the bed back to where rod looks zero full length... should get it fairly close

getting it straight will prevent saddle wear, and part finishes/taper will be good as they get... I stumbled on something a while back, check out http://www.lowerfriction.com and consider getting some of their WS2 lube- I bought powder, mix like half a teaspoon wth a quart of oil, and MAN does that make sliding friction go away...they have it in aerosol too, try it- youll like it... but it does stink like sewage for a few minutes when messing with it. had never heard of tungsten disulfide, but its supposedly a LOT slicker than moly, and not quite as messy... gray instead of black

a lathe- even a klunky old thing- can sure be a handy tool... mines a 17x48 leblond, got it for free/saved it from heading to scrapyard- it had a busted shaft in the headstock, to 'fix' it, I got some stock, put a fanbelt around the chuck, drove that with the chuck of my hand drill ubolted to a board clamped to the headstock- real Rube Goldberg, but got the shaft turned to minor diameters of the busted splined shaft... shimmed/clamped the turned shaft in the lathe turret crossways, chucked a holder/endmill in the spindle, used the lathe to mill a keyslot... rollpinned the one key into the pseudo-splined shaft(only running 1 hp, figured one tooth spline would suffice) gears slide fine on it, and that was like 1984- shes still running. I had ran a dc motor for a few years, but a buddy was using it, flipped it into reverse from full speed fwd and popped the old scr drive I had... it was wimpy anyways, so went back to a 1hp single phase cap start motor- a lot quieter too.

watch ebay for a tool post turret- they come up cheap on occasion- I got a new one still in cosmoline for 50, a lot nicer than a rocker post... if you get a turret and want to make some cheap/shimless boring bar holders, just clamp a piece of heavy stock in the turret, tram it square, chuck a center drill/drill in the spindle and use it like a drillpress...then add setscrews to hold boring bars- easy a old Albrecht drill chuck can be handy, a big jacobs superchuck too- Ive found both rusted looking at yardsales, and for 5-20 bucks, you can get one worth cleaning up- just open, look for scoring on the inner jaw edges...surprising how many Ive seen neglected in old toolboxes that looked new where it mattered... think a lot of guys musta commandeeered tooling and kept when retiring or something- I dont go to many sales, but about 1/4 of the time they had tools, there was chucks and stuff too...

anyways, have fun with it- and please be vary of folks- especially kids- the exposed gears on these old machines scare the heck out of me- mines a 1953 model, originally had a cast gear cover, but long gone...on my list of things to do