Trunion discussion again......................
- SWilliams
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Trunion discussion again......................
OK so the trunion springs and both the plate and trunion shaft on the 2284 are worn enough to throw a cat through. I know the usual drill is weld up, grind back and tighten it up. BUT other than provide a flexible connection between the speed lever and the hydro, what purpose do the springs serve? Just as a test I used 4 heavy zip ties to "bypass" the springs and full control returned and it acted like my other hydrogear tractors with instant control.
If I replace the outer spring with a stiffer spring what happens other than faster wear?
Do they somehow compensate for heavier loads or correct for uphill/downhill speed issues?
I went back through a bunch of posts giving the size of the hole and how shimming was done, but nothing really gave a reason for the springs.
If I replace the outer spring with a stiffer spring what happens other than faster wear?
Do they somehow compensate for heavier loads or correct for uphill/downhill speed issues?
I went back through a bunch of posts giving the size of the hole and how shimming was done, but nothing really gave a reason for the springs.
Owner of an 1863, 2263 (1863 W 22hp engine!) 2084 and a 2 - 2284s.
"In God we trust, All others pay CASH..."
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Re: Trunion discussion again......................
The springs are there to cushion the forward to reverse action.If you made it a solid connection you would have a very jerky hydro,i worked on one that was solid and it would pop wheelies and snap your neck if you were not gentle on the control.
- SWilliams
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Re: Trunion discussion again......................
That's the thing, the newer tractors use a solid connection and they are not jerky. Maybe the internal valving is different ? That's about what I figured, I'll have to play with different springs to get it the way I want it to work.
Owner of an 1863, 2263 (1863 W 22hp engine!) 2084 and a 2 - 2284s.
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- BigMike
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Re: Trunion discussion again......................
Dags hydros are only jerky when he is on them
I figured we haven't sparred for a while Dag
I figured we haven't sparred for a while Dag
- dag1450
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Re: Trunion discussion again......................
what the heck does that mean........you saying..you want a piece of me?
127, 1650, 1572, 1872, 2072 . A mower, blower and blade for each.
- SWilliams
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- Location: Fort Plain NY (Upstate NY near Cooperstown)
Re: Trunion discussion again......................
OK so the springs are supposed to absorb the motion of the linkage and act like a shock absorber? Wonder what a urethane replacement would do.
Last edited by SWilliams on Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Owner of an 1863, 2263 (1863 W 22hp engine!) 2084 and a 2 - 2284s.
"In God we trust, All others pay CASH..."
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- chzuck
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Re: Trunion discussion again......................
I shimmed the spring with a flat washer, one on each end. It makes it a little jerky, but it does not slow up near as much on hills. I tried 2 washers on each end, but that was way to jerky for me.
Last edited by chzuck on Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- BigMike
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Re: Trunion discussion again......................
Dag you just wait until festivus and the airing of grievances
- Tom Scott
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Re: Trunion discussion again......................
A stiffer spring will make it more responsive, likely too responsive. The factory spring should be fine for most applications, but my loader 2182 is so heavy it needs more spring... we'll get back to this. A heavier spring will move less distance in the trunion slot; the wear rate should not be different, only the wear area will be more concentrated at the ends of the slots due to more limited movement.SWilliams wrote:If I replace the outer spring with a stiffer spring what happens other than faster wear?
They don't compensate for heavier loads, but they see more force with heavier loads; the Sauer-Danfoss engineering info gives the specs for how much torque is fed back into the control arm based on hydro loading. So, in an application with real steep hills and heavy loads, such as my loader tractor, a heavier spring is justified. Over on the OCC site they identified a commonly available exhaust stud kit that includes a spring of similar dimensions that is stiffer. The part numbers are Dorman-Help! 03107 or NAPA 600-2411. Again, I wouldn't go to this unless you see the need I do. Even with a new factory spring, I sometimes can't back up with a loaded bucket... the rig is so heavy that the hydro reaction on the control arm compresses the factory spring without being moved far enough to reverse.SWilliams wrote:Do they somehow compensate for heavier loads or correct for uphill/downhill speed issues?
The lighter the spring, the smoother the action at the expense of speed on hills or heavy loads (to the point of no speed in reverse for my case...). The inner spring is longer and weaker, and is meant to ease you into the heavier spring. That is why the heavier outer spring does not touch at first, until you compress the inner spring some.
This... Mark is dead on, can't say it any better!Mcamp wrote:The springs are there to cushion the forward to reverse action.If you made it a solid connection you would have a very jerky hydro,i worked on one that was solid and it would pop wheelies and snap your neck if you were not gentle on the control.
Yes, if linkage is solid it must have hydraulic cushioning, which is really a good way of doing it.SWilliams wrote:That's the thing, the newer tractors use a solid connection and they are not jerky. Maybe the internal valving is different ?
This... BM is dead on here, can't say this any better either!BigMike wrote:Dags hydros are only jerky when he is on them
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2182-1, Kwik-Way Loader, 3-pt & rear pto, 442 tiller
2182-2, 54" deck, 551 snow blower
Past tractors: 1541, 2135
<><
2182-1, Kwik-Way Loader, 3-pt & rear pto, 442 tiller
2182-2, 54" deck, 551 snow blower
Past tractors: 1541, 2135
<><
- SWilliams
- Posts: 806
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- First and Last Name: Steve Williams
- Location: Fort Plain NY (Upstate NY near Cooperstown)
Re: Trunion discussion again......................
Thanks Tom, I hadn't even thought to look at the book on that hydro.
I may weld it up and install the stiffer spring (I have some on the shelf !) Then just get used to it as I won't have a frame of reference for the OEM spring anyway.
Started adjusting the brakes, as it was they almost worked... Almost....
I may weld it up and install the stiffer spring (I have some on the shelf !) Then just get used to it as I won't have a frame of reference for the OEM spring anyway.
Started adjusting the brakes, as it was they almost worked... Almost....
Owner of an 1863, 2263 (1863 W 22hp engine!) 2084 and a 2 - 2284s.
"In God we trust, All others pay CASH..."
"In God we trust, All others pay CASH..."
- dag1450
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Re: Trunion discussion again......................
were putting the pole up this weekend......so let the feats of strength begin! You and your Lloyd Braun (Tom) friend are going down.....BigMike wrote:Dag you just wait until festivus and the airing of grievances
127, 1650, 1572, 1872, 2072 . A mower, blower and blade for each.
- cholloway
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Re: Trunion discussion again......................
^^^^ Does this mean you're the "George" of this repartee? ^^^^
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- dag1450
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Re: Trunion discussion again......................
Colin..no way! I'm Frank! MIke is George.....or Kruger
127, 1650, 1572, 1872, 2072 . A mower, blower and blade for each.
- BigMike
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Re: Trunion discussion again......................
Just because my legal first name is George does NOT mean I am George.
I am a bumbling idiot some maybe I am Kruger!
I am a bumbling idiot some maybe I am Kruger!
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Re: Trunion discussion again......................
How'd your trunion situation turn out, Dag? My next steps on Loader-Mutt will be brake linkage and replacing the trunion with a solid link.
I believe the trunion spring compliance was probably more to reduce the amount of reaction shock placed on the S-R lever... without it, the SR lever would likely not stay in place. In my case, there is no S-R... it's a treadle, so there's no issue with available force. Like Tom notes, though, when the loader is loaded, the springs compress substantially.
One side note, is that the trunion spring arrangement does add a benefit for the unknowledgable- when there's a heavy load on the hydrostat, that causes reaction on the swashplate (which controls pump piston stroke). When a person pushes the swashplate forward, the swashplate's reaction load pushes back in proportion to pump PRESSURE, because you're demanding more VOLUME. This equates to power, but it also equates to drive RATIO.
When there's a heavy drawbar load, and it starts to pull the engine down substantially, the trunion's response (being more swashplate reaction) is to compress one spring, allowing the swashplate to go to a lower RATIO, which means it doesn't pull the engine down as hard, but rather, increases wheel torque at the cost of reaching for speed the motor can't handle.
In my case, when I'm operating, if it's pulling the engine down hard (and I'm not spinning wheels), I back off on the treadle, and it pulls through...
...or it twists off an axle...
I believe the trunion spring compliance was probably more to reduce the amount of reaction shock placed on the S-R lever... without it, the SR lever would likely not stay in place. In my case, there is no S-R... it's a treadle, so there's no issue with available force. Like Tom notes, though, when the loader is loaded, the springs compress substantially.
One side note, is that the trunion spring arrangement does add a benefit for the unknowledgable- when there's a heavy load on the hydrostat, that causes reaction on the swashplate (which controls pump piston stroke). When a person pushes the swashplate forward, the swashplate's reaction load pushes back in proportion to pump PRESSURE, because you're demanding more VOLUME. This equates to power, but it also equates to drive RATIO.
When there's a heavy drawbar load, and it starts to pull the engine down substantially, the trunion's response (being more swashplate reaction) is to compress one spring, allowing the swashplate to go to a lower RATIO, which means it doesn't pull the engine down as hard, but rather, increases wheel torque at the cost of reaching for speed the motor can't handle.
In my case, when I'm operating, if it's pulling the engine down hard (and I'm not spinning wheels), I back off on the treadle, and it pulls through...
...or it twists off an axle...
Yes, I'm a Mad Scientist... but I'm usually happy, even when things ain't goin right.