2084 trans/hyd leak

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2084 trans/hyd leak

Postby GMUmberger » Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:37 am

My 2084 is leaking hydraulic fluid where the shaft from the engine enters the hyd pump. The seal in that coupling seems to have failed just after I had it repaired last season. Is there something else I should have the shop check when I take it back ?
Is this a repair I should be able to do ?
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Re: 2084 trans/hyd leak

Postby dag1450 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:23 am

I believe Tom Scott delt with the same issues a few years ago. I'm not sure if he posted it or not. Sounds like a bad bearing causing the seal to wear prematurely. I will try to wake him from his long winter nap
127, 1650, 1572, 1872, 2072 x 2 . A mower, blower and blade for each.
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Re: 2084 trans/hyd leak

Postby Tom Scott » Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:02 am

Gary - dag nailed it... This is the Achilles's heel of these transmissions. The front bearing behind that seal is a needle bearing that rides directly on the shaft. The shaft wears and gets sloppy and wipes out the seal. The only fix is to replace the shaft (shown as available at $554.00 :shock: ), or find another complete transmission to swap it out for. If buying a used hydro you want to be sure to pull the charge pump off the front and check that shaft for wear. Once they start to wear, they go quick.

Ray Weaver is very good about this when you buy from him, he will pull the charge pump off and check the shaft with you when you show up to buy. Ray's information can be found in our vendor's section, he is up in Lancaster, Pa.

I went through this with my 1872. Bought a replacement from Ray. All of our Supers are on borrowed time, eventually this is how all these hydros will fail. Also, the replacement hydro must be from a Super.

I had considered taking the charge pump body to a machine shop so it could be enlarged to accept a standard bearing with inner and outer races. This would provide a repair method that places a new bearing with an inner race over the damaged shaft, fixed with some Loctite bearing mount. Until the supply of decent used hydros is exhausted this is likely not worth pursuing.

Good luck. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Find a replacement hydro and move on. Store the old hydro for a day when we have to consider the custom approach I mention.
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Re: 2084 trans/hyd leak

Postby dag1450 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:31 pm

Tom... could you physically feel play in the charge pump shaft? There is a chance it was a bad seal job. Removing the charge pump seems pretty straight forward....if he did that....then he could inspect the shaft for wear. If no lip or groove from bearing is it still good and he should try another seal?
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Re: 2084 trans/hyd leak

Postby dag1450 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:36 pm

There is a lot going on right there... check valves, I think line fittings. As long as your sure it's the seal this time? You have the fender pan off for good inspection? Just trying to help.
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Re: 2084 trans/hyd leak

Postby Tom Scott » Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:03 pm

I doubt he will feel the play with certainty. Unlikely to have a new seal leak unless that bearing is bad, but... Yes, pulling the charge pump is the easy for sure way to know.

You need surgical cleanliness when dealing with these hydros. Everything in the area should be spotlessly clean before starting. Notice the orientation of the charge pump, it has a flat spot on the case, make sure it goes back how it was. If you install 180* out, it won't pump. The charge pump has a very thin gasket behind it, like a tough Mylar film type, be careful not to damage and it will likely survive reuse.

Pull the charge pump forward off of the shaft. There will almost certainly be a noticeable worn area where the bearing rides. If you can feel a difference in the shaft with your fingernail (your nail will "catch the edge of the groove"), it is toast. If you were to replace the shaft it requires a full hydro tear-down, but that isn't that bad. It's the $600 cost that's the problem...

Pulling the charge pump in the same way for any hydro you're considering buying is important to be sure you're getting a good one.

The fittings in the same area aren't prone to leaking, but the two check valves are when they start to fail. Certainly better to find the valves are the culprit, but it sounds like Gary has determined the leak is at the shaft.
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1872, 46", 50C decks, Haban dozer blade, 450 snow blower
2182-1, Kwik-Way Loader, 3-pt & rear pto, 442 tiller
2182-2, 54" deck, 551 snow blower
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Re: 2084 trans/hyd leak

Postby JMotuzick » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:00 am

I parted a pair of cyclops supers over the winter, I saved the pumps. Like tom said it’s only time... at this point all of workers are good but some day.... plus cyclops series are different yet with a splined input shaft.
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Re: 2084 trans/hyd leak

Postby Klapatta » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:22 pm

What does this case look like and does it have enough cross sectional material to support the mentioned modification Tom?
There may not be ample material as cast to provide for the boring operation discussed.
I'd like to see photos of the shaft and case. Anyone :?:
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Re: 2084 trans/hyd leak

Postby dag1450 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:01 pm

I don't have anything open Ken. I can get a pic of the outside? What are you thinking.... how to bore it out and fit a new bearing in there?
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Re: 2084 trans/hyd leak

Postby Tom Scott » Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:37 am

Ken - I am working off of memory, but my gut was that I should be able to fit a typical open bearing set in there (inner race, balls, outer race). I didn't do a proper search for bearing diameters, but based on my experience there is enough meat there to take a shot at carving out the pump cap in the area where the bearing would ride. This would be a cake walk for an experienced machinist like yourself!

I'll put this in my "someday" bucket. I saved my 1872 hydro, because otherwise it was operating perfectly. "Someday" I'll pull the charge pump and compare the available meat to commonly available bearings. The needle bearing that is in there is pretty small, it won't take much to exceed the load carrying ability that thing has. Once I choose a bearing it is just a matter of getting a good machinist to bore the proper relief into the charge pump cover and be certain it is concentric to the bore.

The meat available in the cover should be the same as on a regular GT hydro. I believe the charge pump cover and shaft diameters are the same. Again, no time to do anything but work from memory right now, so please excuse any errors I might be making here.
2135, (at parent's)
1872, 46", 50C decks, Haban dozer blade, 450 snow blower
2182-1, Kwik-Way Loader, 3-pt & rear pto, 442 tiller
2182-2, 54" deck, 551 snow blower
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Re: 2084 trans/hyd leak

Postby Tom Scott » Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:46 am

I wasn't going to mention, but I guess I have to admit to one false repair attempt on the 1872 as well...

When it went bad, I looked up bearings that would fit within the same dimensions as the needle bearing, but ones with inner races. Without carving out the charge pump cover, I was looking at fairly small bearings. I found one with the exact inner and outer diameters and doubled it up because it was of course fairly narrow due to its small outside diameter. It worked! For about a week! So, that hydro might not be so good anymore, it might have some rather tiny ball bearings that got pumped through it! :lol:
2135, (at parent's)
1872, 46", 50C decks, Haban dozer blade, 450 snow blower
2182-1, Kwik-Way Loader, 3-pt & rear pto, 442 tiller
2182-2, 54" deck, 551 snow blower
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Re: 2084 trans/hyd leak

Postby Klapatta » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:58 am

Tom, it's the first time that I ever heard of the issue. Until now my impression was that these units were virtually indestructible. It's a moot point to speculate how a proper rework could be undertaken without having the whole thing in plain sight, there's probably a half dozen ways the matter could be addressed. I run into dozens of matters like this every year and no two are hardly ever the same. But I'd think a big old straight roller or ball type bearing would be the way to go providing there's a way to fit it to the case and retain it with snap rings or whatever providing there's ample material and room within the case structure. There are a zillion to choose from. I'm not a huge fan of needle bearings, with so many linier points of surface contact area it's only natural for a shaft to wear out quicker, even one properly hardened. Can the shaft in question be turned or ground down to the next nominal under size also needs to be taken into consideration. Yes, once excessive clearance exists the matter will worsen rapidly. Another option worth considering is shaft surface build up using chrome plating, something that I have access to locally however that would not fare well with direct contact against any actual roller surface, rather it could be employed to serve for a press or slip application as the inside dia. for a standard bearing. I'm aware that later machines went to splines, while it is a leap forward in design improvement that may well complicate the rework issue. MTD was responsible for many design improvements along the way although they hardly ever get the credits they deserve for them. Gotta have one in front of me otherwise it's all just speculation :roll:
Good luck to you guys with this one. Start hoarding super pumps. :lol:
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Re: 2084 trans/hyd leak

Postby dag1450 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:04 pm

I'm wondering if this more of problem for the tractors with the CV and universal joints. Maybe a balance issue. Maybe too much mass creating lateral force that the needles can't handle. The previous straight single rod might be easier on the bearing.
I did just go back and see Tom's was on an 1872. Idk. Most of my supers have been pretty high hours and have been dry. 1500-2000 hrs. Idk
I just looked up the bearing. Same bearing from 105 through 2284. That's a long run...
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