New guy and 1772 driveshaft questions

[jer0177]

Hello all - just signed up yesterday because I'm having some problems with my 1772 Diesel.

My girlfriend's dad bought it new, and gave it to us last year. It's got 692 hours on it, 60" deck, the rear 3-pt hitch (no PTO), and he has a blade with power angle that he keeps trying to give us, but we just don't have room to store it out of the weather.

The problem I'm having is driveshaft wobble/vibration. I've already had to replace the flange, rag joints, 3 hydro lines, steering column sleeve and the bushing in the rear coupler, and can't seem to get this shaft to turn smoothly. I'm seriously considering taking it to the driveline shop and having them make a real driveshaft for this thing, but wanted to get some more ideas before I did that.

The front end of the driveshaft doesn't insert fully into the bushing in the front - should it? Seems like it should so that it will stay centered.

The rolle pin in the rear coupler was missing (her dad replaced it with a cotter pin), and I have tried to replace it with a rolle pin, but the diameter of the hole in the input shaft to the hydro pump is much smaller than the diameter of the hole in the coupler, so when I did, the coupler still moved a little bit on the shaft. Is this normal?

I'll work on getting some pictures up, but for now, it's torn apart in the garage.

[jer0177]

Some more information:

The diameter of the hole in the input (splined) shaft for the Hydro pump is 1/8" (that's what size drill bit fits into the hole). The diameter of the hole in the coupler that fits onto this shaft is 3/16" (again, drill bit test).




Motor mounts look OK too:
front left

rear left

front right

rear right


I checked the ears on the pump and they're all ok.

[Dave C]

There are 2 self aligning ball bushings one at each end of the driveshaft, one in the coupler on the engine and one on the coupler on the pump.... sounds like you have replaced them already? but yes the driveshaft needs to fully engage into both of those bushings.

[Dave C]

Do you have the disconnect clutch still in there? Im fairly sure those all came with a disconnect clutch for cold weather starts.
If thats gone it may be that someone made a custom driveshaft when the other failed and didnt make it quite correctly.

Dave Kerr could probably make you a correct one.. providing maybe you supply him with yours and advise him of what to make differently. like this end needs to be 3/4 inch longer or something.

just shooting ideas

[jer0177]

Dave,

I appreciate the responses - yes, I did replace both bushing/bearing and all 4 rubber discs that make up the rag joints. The shaft was 3/8" too short, so I welded it up tonight and will see if I can find a machine shop in the morning that can turn it down to the correct diameter. The shaft still has the centrifical clutch, so it is OE. I think the difference is from the. We discs - they're thicker than the ones I took out.

Any ideas about the shaft hole diameter differences at the rear?

[mgonitzke]

Yes, the rear coupler is worn out. Time for a new one. The holes should be the same size, so if they aren't, the coupler got loose in the input shaft and wore out. This is why the driveshaft is wobbling.

[jer0177]

Yes, the rear coupler is worn out. Time for a new one. The holes should be the same size, so if they aren't, the coupler got loose in the input shaft and wore out. This is why the driveshaft is wobbling.

That was my first thought, but the holes in the coupler are manufactured, not worn, and they are the same size as the spirol pin hole in the front coupler, leaving the input shaft as the "odd man out" when it comes to hole size.

Does anyone have an input shaft for the hydro pump handy and can measure the diameter of the hole?

[Dave C]

Well according to the parts blowup it shows an 1/8" diameter spirol pin as the correct pin to use in that aplication.

it shows the pin on the other end being 3/8"

Im not terribly familier with the clutch setups on those tractors but if i read the parts blowup correctly i think your right if the new rubber discs are thicker it will push the clutch and shaft away. I think mostly cause the clutch kinda floats on the shaft... by the looks of it.

So i would say you would notice some vibration if the shaft doesnt enter the pilot bushing.

It would seem to me that the coupler hole is worn.... i looked this part up also its over 100 bucks new and its only used on a few of the Supers.... so it wont be easy to find used.

I also wonder if that one u have is fairly new and they are not comming from the factory correct?

[Farmallgray]

On that rear coupler I would drill the hole in the coupler and tap it 1/4-20 and put a set screw in it and drill another new hole at 90 deg and put a second set screw in that hole. I have done that to two tractors and it seems to work well.

[jer0177]

Well according to the parts blowup it shows an 1/8" diameter spirol pin as the correct pin to use in that aplication.

it shows the pin on the other end being 3/8"

Im not terribly familier with the clutch setups on those tractors but if i read the parts blowup correctly i think your right if the new rubber discs are thicker it will push the clutch and shaft away. I think mostly cause the clutch kinda floats on the shaft... by the looks of it.

So i would say you would notice some vibration if the shaft doesnt enter the pilot bushing.

It would seem to me that the coupler hole is worn.... i looked this part up also its over 100 bucks new and its only used on a few of the Supers.... so it wont be easy to find used.

I also wonder if that one u have is fairly new and they are not comming from the factory correct?

The clutch housing does float - and that's what the rear rag joint is bolted to. The part of the clutch that is pinned to the driveshaft is the center part, and when the assembly gets spinning fast enough, the weights sling out and catch the outer part of the housing, causing the rag joint and in turn the hydro pump input shaft to turn. Tore it all apart this morning and found out that the "dampers" that go between the inner and outer part of the clutch were toast, and one was stuck in between the outer halves, causing it to always be locked up, and out of balance (which may have been a good part of my problem). Bad news is the dampers aren't made anymore, but the good news is they just look like nylon rod with a groove milled out down one side. I think I can come up with something to fit the bill - quite possibly even locally.

The Cub Cadet Warehouse shows to have one of the couplers in stock, so I'm going to put in an inquiry to them and see if they can measure the diameter of the holes - but I think I may go the drill/tap/setscrew route.

On that rear coupler I would drill the hole in the coupler and tap it 1/4-20 and put a set screw in it and drill another new hole at 90 deg and put a second set screw in that hole. I have done that to two tractors and it seems to work well.

When reassembling, do I line a setscrew up with the hole in the input shaft to aid in retention or do I offset it, and would it be beneficial to drill/tap both holes 120 degrees off of one of the spirol pin holes and still use a spirol pin to hold the coupler on in the event the setscrews' loctite failed?

[mgonitzke]

The hole in the coupler is supposed to be 1/8". Check to see if the coupler wobbles on the input shaft. If it does, replace it. Don't bother with the setscrews. If there is play in it you may wind up with it slightly misaligned by using setscrews to tighten it up, which means the vibration will still be there if it comes loose again, it can destroy the input shaft, which is a LOT more expensive to fix than simply doing the right thing and replacing the coupler.

There is an old saying that goes something like "he who is cheapest spends the most money" and I've proven that to be true myself a few times

[jrarick]

Like Matt said--if the rear coupler wobbles around on the shaft you need to replace it as they wear on the inside. I had the same problem with vibration on my 1772 until i replaced the coupler.

[mpfeiffer]

For whatevever the reason the 1772 is hard on the drive line. Like everyone has said it is important to replace every worn part when rebulding the drive line. The drive shaft itself is also prone to wearing at the end, which sounds like you have already discovered, and the rear coupler is also important. There have been others who have made up new drive lines using 1872/2072 shafts and eliminating the disconnect clutch, and have said that afterwords the tractor runs smoother. It seems that these diesels have a point about 1/4 ot 1/3 into the throttle range where you pick up extra vibration as well, but from there up quite smooth. My 1772 was a basket case when I bought it. I replaced everything with new except the shaft itselft and the disconnect clutch.

[SWilliams]

Diesels are ALL hard on drivelines. It is because of the torque pulse that they have. If you want to see damage take a look at some of the diesel P/Us out there. They beat the crap out of the mounts and clutch input shafts.

[Farmallgray]

I didn't intend for the set screws to be a substitute for a worn coupler. Although "just replace the coupler" may be easier said than done since the last I heard
they were NLA. Eventually the supply of good used ones will dry up.

In the two cases that I did it the couplers were tight. In one case I made my own new coupler (lots of work) and didn't think I could accurately locate the pin hole. In the other case the shaft was from a cyclops and didn't have a pin hole to begin with.

If the coupler is tight and one wishes to add the set screws I would just drill one of the existing holes larger then drill the second new hole at 90 degrees to the original holes.

[jer0177]

Ok, I have ordered the rear coupler, 3 new spirol pins and a new bushing for the front. The driveshaft is at a machine shop now to be turned back down to the correct diameter at the end where it goes through the front bushing - it wasn't perfectly true after I repaired it the first time and I had to extend it by 3/8", so this way it will be right.

Thanks for the help guys - I'll let you know how it turns out when I get it back together.

Next question - muffler - vertical or horizontal? When it self-destructed the first time, I noticed that the extension piece for the muffler was torque cracked around the inner flange, so I repaired that while I had it apart, and put the muffler back on vertically thinking that it would remove the torsional force exerted on the extension during operation. Anybody else do this?

[mgonitzke]

Every time somebody claims that coupler is NLA, I look it up on the parts lookup, and it shows still available from Cub Cadet. Not sure who started that rumor, but they apparently didn't even bother checking to see if it was still available.

Somebody on another forum found a hub with the same spline that can be modified into a coupler. That's what I'll be doing next time I need one.

[jrarick]

I have owned my 1772 for 19 years so I have been into the driveshaft a few times. I have found it helps to replace the bolts and nuts with new ones from cub cadet parts while you have it apart. They are the correct lenght and hardness as well as have center locking (nuts). First time I used local hardware bolts and the locking nuts with the plastic inserts. They did not last very long. Throws them right off. Just my experience

[Farmallgray]

Matt,
When I owned a 982 about 4 years ago the coupler was shot. I called my local dealer, Madsens and C&G and they all told me it wasn't available. That was no rumor. So I bought a splined shaft coupler and spent about 6 or 8 hours at my lathe turning into a steel version of that coupler. I wouldn't have done that if I could have bought a new one. Now it is possible that it may have been backordered at the time and later became available again. I haven't needed one since then so I never tried to get one after that. Apparently others have had the same problem.

I have also had parts show available in the online lookup and when I tried to order them was told they were NLA.

[jer0177]

Todd,

The 982 uses a different style coupler on the rear than the 1772, according to the CC parts lookups:

982 (part number 8): http://www.partstree.com/parts/?lc=cub_ ... 0031900014
1772 (part number 7): http://www.partstree.com/parts/?lc=cub_ ... 0029400011

The front coupler for the 1772 is NLA - but mine is OK, just need a new spirol pin for it, which I have on order.

I have owned my 1772 for 19 years so I have been into the driveshaft a few times. I have found it helps to replace the bolts and nuts with new ones from cub cadet parts while you have it apart. They are the correct lenght and hardness as well as have center locking (nuts). First time I used local hardware bolts and the locking nuts with the plastic inserts. They did not last very long. Throws them right off. Just my experience

The parts book that came with the tractor indicate grade 5 hardware, which is what I'm using - new from the hardware store. I am using new self-locking nuts (not the nylock ones - the ones that are squashed to hold on) and red loctite.

[vince_o]

Matt

Try and order some and see how long they stay on B/O.

When I was doing the 1872 I looked and called as many places as I could. Everyone told me they were NLA. I tried threw work, we cant get them.

[mgonitzke]

When I went through my 1872 2(?) years ago it was still available. I've been hearing 'NLA' all over the internet for a year, but yet it still shows up as 'available' on the CC parts lookup website. You'd think they'd update that if it was NLA.

Anyway, next time I need one I'm using a Hub City 0332-00027 hub and welding on some ears for the rag joint. Some guy on another forum dug up that coupler that has the correct spline.

[rweaver]

I tried to order one for a 1772 and was told nla by a dealer we use often and they even called cadet no go is the last we heard so if somebody gets one let me know I will order one for me I know for a fact cadet is making more parts all the time go away if that 1772 was mine that disconect clutch would be out of there they are the number 1 things on those tractors to make trouble I helped replace a bunch of them

[jer0177]

Guys, I received, via UPS, today, the parts ordered, including the rear coupling arm (granted, it's in an MTD bag instead of a Cub Cadet one):



So, if you need one, go ahead and order it - this rumor of them being NLA is bupkis.

[jer0177]

Update:

Got everything back together today.

For the clutch "dampers", I was able to take some .5" nylon rod, grind down one end enough to get it in the clutch hub, and did some shaping along the side that needed to be notched, and hammered it through and used the clutch hub as a "former" to remove unnecessary material, then cleaned up the ends to length. Worked very well - the nylon rod came from Graingers at a cost of under $2 for a foot.

The locking nuts were all replaced with new all-metal locking nuts (and lock-tited), and the 2 spirol pin and 1 roll pin were all replaced with new, along with the self-centering bushings and the rear coupler.

Everything went back together very smoothly (I've had it apart enough by this point I could probably do it in my sleep), and the driveline is vibration free!

Thanks for the recommendations and help. I'll work on getting some pictures - need to clean it up after cutting the grass.

[Tom Scott]

Jeremy - Great job on resurrecting that 1772!

Often this type of problem is what turns a tractor to junk. Either it is pushed outside to rot or it is repaired so poorly that it self destructs. You have definitely saved one.

Now, you need to consider finding room for that Haban power angle blade. If you don't ever plan on moving snow, they regularly bring over $400. I paid much more than that for mine before the economy crashed. Just don't let Dad scrap it; someone would love to have it.

But...If you are considering snow removal with it, you will not be disappointed. I have pushed 12" of snow with mine just to see if it would do it. (Real deep snow is really snowblower territory because you run out of places to put it with a blade.) For any snow 8" or under, the Haban blade on my 1872 is my go-to. Makes snow removal fast and fun.

Sorry,I couldn't resist the thread hi-jack. And he did mention the blade first...

[jer0177]

Working on getting a shed built to put all this in, but both her and my ATV have plow blades on them, and mine's a 26HP 4x4 (Honda Rancher), which beats out the 17hp 2wd tractor.

I'd like to pick it up, but will have to hang onto it for a while.

[SWilliams]

You put a plow and chains and some weight on that 1772 and it will push things that the ATV only dreams of... The Haban blade isn't a snow blade it is actually a dirt/snow blade made for real work.

[Tom Scott]

Jeremy - As Steve is saying, you may not realize what a beast you have inherited. The key is enough weight and good chains. Good chains means high quality 2 link chains that really aren't that expensive. Weight means whatever you need for the steepness of the hill.

I have an extremely steep asphalt drive (22% grade). On my 1872 with the Haban 54" blade I keep the turf tires loaded all year long with 11 gallons of propylene glycol, which provides 190 lbs. I also have steep hills to mow, so the loaded tires prevent slipping in the grasss. In the winter I add one 55 lb weight to each wheel. The chains add another 30 lb. Grand total of 330 lbs. I push snow both down and uphill without problems. I can drive anywhere I want through 8" of snow. I drive cross country through the woods up a path to do my neighbors stone drive. Like I said earlier, I have pushed as much as 12" of snow with it on asphalt just for grins, but that is impractical with a snowblower attachment waiting in the wings. Altogether with the tractor, blade and weights, and me in the seat, you are up to around a 1700 lb rig.

For my snowblower, which is a real heavy attachment, more weight is required to restore the same level of traction. I have settled on 500 lbs total of weight (including the loaded tires) for using the blower. I have gone as high as 650 lbs, but I probably didn't need that much. With that much counterweight, me and the heavy blower my 18 hp gas engine was pulling at least 2200 lbs up that driveway! Your 17 hp diesel is even stronger!

If you don't have the steep hills you would need much less weight. On the flat areas a single 55 lb weight without the loaded tires was plenty.

Horsepower (17 vs. 26) is not the issue, traction and maneuverability is. The hydraulic angle allows you to change the direction of directing snow on the fly, at speed. Hydraulic raise and lower of the blade is equally effortless. The turning brakes can pivot the rear on the inside tire if needed for a very tight turning radius. Even with 4 wheel drive, I just don't see the 500 lb Rancher pushing more snow more efficiently than these. That Rancher looks like a great machine, just probably not better at pushing snow.

My 2012 snow fleet that sat most of the time; 1872, 2182, 1861, waiting for duty:



1872 all chained up with no place to go:



I think I scared the snow away this year...

[jer0177]

I see.

This thing came with 75 lb weights on each rear wheel and chains (not sure if 2 link or not, but kinda worn from constant use).

When the shaft came apart the first time, I tried to use the ATV to pick up the rear of the mower to tow it back to the garage, but all that did was lift the rear of the ATV off the ground. I ended up using the pickup with a winch on the front and it worked great.

The driveway here is gravel, and the ATVs will push the snow until it builds up too much and the wheels just spin and dig holes. We had a really bad back-to-back snowstorm here in early 2010 and were left with ~36" of snow on the ground - she plowed it with her ATV (Polaris 400) with no problems, just did layers at a time instead of trying to do it all at once.