Sometimes you feel stupid...

[Tom Scott]

...and embarrassed you didn't catch a problem sooner. So of course, you have to tell on yourself. Here it is:

Went to fire up the 1872 for a quick mow, but just got clicks of the solenoid. Sounded like the starter tried to turn, but not strong enough. Immediately I thought of my battery that has seemed a little weak, but didn't think it was that close to failing.

Half hour on the charger while I weed-whack. Back to try again. Again click, no turn. Huh...Battery must be really toast. Get 1861 alongside for jumping duty. Click again, no turn. Huh...Bad starter? Hasn't been acting up...doesn't make sense.

The problem with being in the middle of the situation is that all I really want to is mow, so I am not thinking as critically as I should. Decide to click starter few more times since I don't have any other solution at that time. Starter turns a little, stops. Try again, further, stops. Finally spins well, but doesn't start. Then finally with another try starts briefly, throwing a big cloud of smoke, then quits. I am still perplexed, because it always starts well, and hadn't turned over enough to flood on full choke. Deciding that I don't have a brain, I try again, because I am short on time and just want to mow. Starts, big cloud of smoke, then dies. Third time, same thing.

I finally come to my senses, and start using my brain. Think, think,...oh crap. Big cloud of smoke might mean crankcase full of gas. Check oil... Oh crap, crankcase full of gas. So, battery was fine, starter was fine, motor was hydro-locked on gas. Fortunately, it was such a slow progression of squeezing all the liquid out of the cylinder, I don't think I bent a rod. I don't like that it ran briefly (three times ) with a crankcase full of gas, but it was for less than 20 seconds each time, so hopefully I didn't hurt it.

Lesson learned here is that it is easy to get stupid when you are just pushing to get a job done. Fuel pump on order, pride still a little damaged.

[BigMike]

Don't feel bad Tom....I am usually my own worst enemy
I NEVER shut the fuel off on any of my Cubs......but one.After I spent a boat load on rebuilding the 2072 I put an inline valve and I shut it off and let some of the fuel burn off.

[ReicheP]

Tom years ago same thing happened on my 682, new fuel pump and manual shut off fixed that trouble.

[Oak]

Same thing happened to me on my 1811. Bypass the pump because it's not needed if you keep your tank over 1/4 full. Did that 2 years/30 hours ago and she runs fine.

[vince_o]

Tom

I rebuilt the pump on Marc's wheel horse the other day for 32 bucks. Theres a guy on the Wheel horse forums making kits for the pumps if you cant find one cheap.

[Tom Scott]

I appreciate the replies. I have just been to busy to post much, but have been reading most days all summer. Good to hear from all you guys.

As Paul and Mike point out, a shutoff valve can keep fuel out while parked, but if the fuel pump is bad you will be putting fuel into the oil as you use tractor. If the fuel pump is bad it might be better to have it fill the crankcase with gas while its parked so you catch the problem sooner. You just don't want to be running it with the oil getting diluted with gas.

Todd's solution has merit to just avoid the problem altogether by eliminating the pump, but I just can't bring myself to eliminate it. I have some steep hills and would be concerned of a lean condition. That's not good for the motor either.

Vince, Kohler already took me to the cleaners. $86 with shipping. Kohler decided that this part should be "non-serviceable". I didn't know someone was making a kit; I will keep it in mind.

[Farmallgray]

I don't like the new kohler fuel pumps. The old ones had 1/8" npt fittings which you could get anywhere. The new ones use special fittings that seal with an o ring and are a real pain to remove and install.

Vince, do you have contact info for the guy or a link? I have a couple old pumps laying around that I may need to use sometime soon.

[Tom Scott]

Todd - I agree with you on the fittings. They work, but now it is a special item, not just a general hardware piece.

I took my old pump apart and I couldn't find any holes in the diaphragm. I looked real closely with real strong reading glasses and couldn't find anything.

My tank was quite full when it filled the crankcase, so I guess it could be the needle and seat in the carb. I will have to get it going again to find out. I don't really feel like pulling the carb unless I have to.

I now wish I had taken the time to find a small electric pump; no more worries then about the mechanical pump leaking into the crankcase. A small electric fuel shutoff would also be good to prevent the carb from slowly passing fuel through, but I don't want to have to deal with a mechanical valve every time I go to use the tractor.

Any suggestions on either a small electric pump (low pressure) or electric fuel shutoff? Somebody might even make it as one unit...

[BigMike]

Tom,I used to use these on VWs,
http://www.bing.com/search?q=facet+fuel ... HP&x=0&y=0

I have one on my 882 as a transfer pump.

[Tom Scott]

Well final update to the thread in case it will help someone.

I installed the new pump and filled the 1872 fuel tank all the way up without any hose on the outlet of the pump to see if the check valves would resist the pressure of a high fuel level in the tank. (Both of the check valves in the pump are both positioned to open if the fuel pressure from the tank were high enough.) The new pump did not pass any fuel through. So, for my crankcase to get filled with gas, the old fuel pump had to be bad in some way.

With the engine not running, the fuel either needs to pass by the check valves in the pump and the carb would have to also have a leaking needle/seat assembly, or the diaphragm would have to leak the fuel directly into the crankcase.

When I got the engine running again I took it off choke right away to see if it would be running lean like it should be while cold. It started surging, indicating a lean condition. If I can make it run lean, then the needle and seat probably aren't leaking.

Also...After completely draining the crankcase, I decided to waste some oil and pour some new oil in while the drain plug was out. I was surprised at how much additional gas contaminated oil came out. So, if this happens to you, plan on wasting a quart of oil to rinse out the remaining fuel from the pockets inside the crankcase.

Mike - Thanks for a fuel pump suggestion, but your link doesn't take you to a specific model. What model are you recommending? It would need to be a fairly low psi output (probably under 3 psi) or a regulator would be required.

[BigMike]

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/produ ... p?RecID=83

[dag1450]

Glad to hear everything is back running with no calateral damage. I have 2 magnums and soon to be a third, sounds like i should try to get in the habit of pulling the dip stick before running the engines. That sounds easier than fuel shut offs or other pumps, or no pump at all. Dave

[Tom Scott]

Mike - Thanks for the updated pump link. That looks like a good size, but the pressure might be high for our carb needle & seats.

Dave - Yeah, it's not like they go bad everyday. My motor is a year 1992 replacement, so once every 20 years isn't so bad, its just the "surprise factor". Although there is a shutoff under the tank, it is too hard to get to to use on a regular basis. I added one of the Briggs & Stratton plastic inline fuel shutoffs right before the pump. Quick and easy to get to. But, even with a shutoff, you wouldn't want to keep using it with an leaky pump. I will be checking the oil more often in both my Magnums as well.

[vince_o]

When Allen brought his 1872 here it was full of gas mixed in the oil. Im so glad he never got it running. His wasnt the pump, but the needle. We put a #26 on it.

Im not in the habbit of pulling dipsticks, SHUT UP MIKE, but I really need to on the mags, seeing that I will at times run a 10% ethonal blend.

[BigMike]

Ah the love of a man and his dipstick

[cubcadet100]

Vince, remember when you started the 1872 and it sprayed gas all over your shop...lol!

[mgonitzke]

You should ALWAYS check the oil before starting the engine, regardless of whether it's a Magnum, KT, K-series, etc....how else will you know if it's low or full of gas?

[dag1450]

The 2072 mower sat all winter,I knew the battery would be dead because it was on its last leg in the fall so on sunday i put in a nice new 300 cold cranking amp battery ($47.50), I gave the key a turn and all i got was a click , tried a couple more times and nothing. Then it hit me .....check the oil....full of gas...what a mess . When i pulled the drain plug out it looked like Niagera falls, LOOK OUT oil and gas came out with force, probably a gallon or more. I have a used spare fuel pump that i picked up on ebay for cheap last year just for this reason, i will try to get a rebuild kit for it because it does not make sence to have the same thing happen a year from now as all the fuel pumps are 20 plus yrs old now. I'm disappointed with myself that i did not do my normal pre start oil check. Thanks for all the tips and tricks guys. These foums are really the best tools in the tool box. Dave

[dag1450]

Just went out to see how big of a job it is to get the pump off,(this looks like a much bigger job than i thought). So i have the air filter off and i look down into the carb and i see my trouble light shining back at me in a puddle of fuel in the intake. This does not seem right ,after a few atempts i got it started then looked again and fuel was gone. I'm wondering if my needle and seat need the work and not the fuel pump ? My other 2072 had a little fuel in the intake but that had not been run for about 8 months so i dont want to use that as a gauge on whats right or wrong. I'm not going to rush into anything at this point. What do u guys think ?Dave

[bbaker]

I put a filter and a shut off valve in all my fuel lines and I try to check oil before I start. Now ask me how many times I've gotten half way around the house when the tractor dies.. You gotta remember to turn that fuel valve on or once the fuel bowl runs empty they quit!

Gas in the intake would usually mean your needle seat is leaking. You can have the fuel pump and carb off one of these engines in about 10 minutes. I need to pull the carb on my 782 as it's running with the choke half out... I slammed a snow pile this winter with the blade and it's had to run like that since. (me thinks I dislodged some dirt in the carb that is now in a needle or orfice)

All of us that have played with the magnum engines have had thegas in the oil syndrome at some point. last one I had I flushed it, and refilled and quickly changed oil again. It was the needle seat in that tractor that didn't shut off and it had a full tank of gas so it was FULL