782D Exhaust Manifold Coming Apart

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v30crewcab
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Re: 782D Exhaust Manifold Coming Apart

Post by v30crewcab »

good news is, I've seen new exhaust manifolds on ebay for it. too bad that happened though.
70 stuck motor
128 stuck motor
1050 putting back together

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Tom Scott
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Re: 782D Exhaust Manifold Coming Apart

Post by Tom Scott »

Bryan - Take a deep breath and relax, it may not be too bad.

This will be too long, I apologize, but it might help someone...

1) The ultimate goal of tightening any fastener is to stretch the body of the bolt (or stud). This now stretched bolt (or stud) stays tight due to the tension caused by stretching it and clamps the part you are trying to retain (manifold). Steel has a very broad "elastic region" which means if you don't go past this point, it will return to its original shape when the fastener is loosened. The goal of torque specs is to tension the fastener tight enough to be in the elastic region without going into permanent deformation.

2) Studs are not tightened into the hole. Tightening a stud into the threaded hole does not develop any holding tension to hold the part (manifold in this case). It is best to do no more than lightly snug the stud into the hole, where it will either bottom out in the hole or run out of threads at the top. Any further tightening is useless and will risk breaking the stud off in the hole.

3) There is nothing worse to try and remove than a stud or bolt that was installed incorrectly and tightened hard into the bottom of the hole and broken off. You generally have to drill these out.

4) Kubota knows better, so your studs should not be installed incorrectly. That means if they were only snugged when installed that when the nut is removed (or breaks off) that all the tension is released on that stud. If you have enough threads remaining after removing the manifold, double nut the stud (tighten two nuts against each other) and use an open end wrench to turn the inner nut. It may come out very easily.

5) Even if the studs are installed correctly, corrosion could hamper removal. Use Kroil (AeroKroil is the aerosol version) and soak them. Kroil is available online and worth the wait http://www.kanolabs.com/ . Nothing else sold in a can is as good at penetrating and allowing corroded fasteners to be removed.

6) Same for the bolts. Bolts are just studs with nuts permanently attached on the end. The main difference is that you won't have any threads to double nut. Vice Grips might hold well enough to back out the remaining bolt (after liberal application of Kroil if any resistance is felt). You don't want to force the stud/bolt. If you break off the remaining portion, your life just got harder. Order the Kroil and let it soak for a day or two before you push too hard on the wrench or Vice Grips.

7) Also Google on stud removal tools. They are essentially a cam like grip that holds tighter as you grip the remaining stud/bolt.

8) When reassembling anything built with blind holes like this you must be sure to use bolts that will not bottom out in the hole, for the reasons stated above. You want your tightening to clamp the part being installed and develop tension in the bolt. If the bolt is too long it will bottom out and bind in the hole, but not clamp your part correctly.

9) Only use good hardware in engines (and other critical applications, like anywhere on these machines). Grade 5 or higher only. Grade 5 is indicated by three radial lines on the bolt head. Do not buy ungraded or Grade 2 hardware for anything on these tractors.

Finally...I would not use the tractor in this condition. Just not worth the risk. And, you do need to justify having that back-up machine! :beer:
Good luck, let us know how you do.
1872, 46", 50C decks, Haban dozer blade, 450 snow blower
2182-1, Kwik-Way Loader, 3-pt & rear pto, 442 tiller
2182-2, 54" deck, 551 snow blower
Past tractors:  1541, 2135
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Tom Scott
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Re: 782D Exhaust Manifold Coming Apart

Post by Tom Scott »

Bryan - Additional thoughts...

"Easy-outs" generally aren't easy. This would be the last resort if you break of the stud/bolt flush with the head. At this point you will have to decide if you have the ability to drill the required hole for the easy-out directly in the center of a hardened bolt. This can be difficult and maybe impossible with the head installed on the tractor.

Lets hope you don't get to this point. If you do, we can all get a cup of coffee here and discuss your options.

Persevere; it is only a machine and you can beat it. ;)
1872, 46", 50C decks, Haban dozer blade, 450 snow blower
2182-1, Kwik-Way Loader, 3-pt & rear pto, 442 tiller
2182-2, 54" deck, 551 snow blower
Past tractors:  1541, 2135
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Tom Scott
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Re: 782D Exhaust Manifold Coming Apart

Post by Tom Scott »

Darn...Just re-read your post, and you have one broken off flush.

Get the Kroil coming in the mail.

Methods for the broken off flush stud:

A) If you are real lucky, the stud may have a jagged edge you can catch with a cold chisel and tap it around if it is on the loose side.

B) If a little is sticking up (above flush), a stud removal tool might be able to grip it, or you might be able to grind a slot for a flat blade screwdriver into the top with a dremel.

C) 1) Easy-out, already discussed. Requires perfectly straight hole drilled as close to center of stud as possible. This all starts with a perfect center punch mark and a small pilot hole (1/8") from a high quality sharp drill. If you drill too much off center, the easy out will grab the outside threads in the head and not turn the stud out.

2) Follow the small pilot hole up with the drill size marked on the easy out. Sears has recently marketed some newer types of easy-outs that I would look into.

3) Tap easy-out into hole and apply careful pressure. Easy outs are hard, so if you break that off in the hole, life gets even worse.

D) If you have the equipment, you can weld to the top of the remaining stud something you can grip to remove it.

E) Remove the head and take to a machine shop.

Let us know how you do.
1872, 46", 50C decks, Haban dozer blade, 450 snow blower
2182-1, Kwik-Way Loader, 3-pt & rear pto, 442 tiller
2182-2, 54" deck, 551 snow blower
Past tractors:  1541, 2135
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Farmallgray
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Re: 782D Exhaust Manifold Coming Apart

Post by Farmallgray »

Couple more thoughts on removing the broken stud. I have done quite a few.
Drill the whole way through the broken stud. As Tom said the hole has to be perfectly centered. A set of left hand bits can help too.
Once you get the initial pilot hole drilled, the next size bit may catch and back the stud out. Drill the hole as close as you can to the tap drill size. This makes what is left of the stud fairly thin and helps relieve the tension. Then the easy out can back it out easier. If you see or feel the easy out twisting stop. Cause if you break it off you are really screwed. At that point I would drill to the tap drill size then carefully run a tap through to clean out what is left.
See my IH, Cub Cadet and tractor pulling youtube videos;
http://www.youtube.com/user/farmallgray

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Tom Scott
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Re: 782D Exhaust Manifold Coming Apart

Post by Tom Scott »

Bryan - Tag teaming with Todd here, reading his thoughts made me think of something we haven't mentioned....

Heat is your friend. Use a propane torch (get a mapp gas cylinder, hotter flame) and heat the head right at exhaust outlet. The head is cast (not a hardened material) so you don't have to worry about destroying any heat treatment. You want to heat the head down the length of where the stud is, basically heating the inside of the exhaust passage. Just don't let a lot of flame hit the exhaust valve, you could damage that if you were persistent enough.

If the lights are low you should be able see that area of the head when it just starts to glow a dull orange. By heating the head (not the stud/bolt) you are expanding the metal around it. Often with heating like this they will turn right out.

As soon as the head is hot, start turning the stud. The longer you wait, the more the temps equalize with the stud, and it will start expanding some and not turn as easily. Repeat the heating procedure if needed. Usually if you get it to turn at all, you got it.

One disclaimer: I am speaking in general. I have never done this to this particular engine, but machinery in general. Todd has the direct experience with this engine, so if he may have better specific knowledge than me.

Good luck! (One more thing... Just my experience and opinions here...PB Blaster is not so good. Order the Kroil, you won't regret it. If you want something local, I think Liquid Wrench is better than Blaster, but it still isn't Kroil.)
1872, 46", 50C decks, Haban dozer blade, 450 snow blower
2182-1, Kwik-Way Loader, 3-pt & rear pto, 442 tiller
2182-2, 54" deck, 551 snow blower
Past tractors:  1541, 2135
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BigMike
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Re: 782D Exhaust Manifold Coming Apart

Post by BigMike »

If you have access to a mig welder(110 volt unit will work just fine) weld a nut on the stud,9 times out of 10 it will come out without a hitch.

EngineMike
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Re: 782D Exhaust Manifold Coming Apart

Post by EngineMike »

Sorry I'm late to the party here guys...

I agree with Big Mike, welding a nut a size bigger to what's left of the stud is the best way to get the stud out. I do this almost daily at work as the guys seem to think I have the best luck at it. The welding will heat the stud up enough to get it loose, it's such a small head it really shouldn't be in their that bad. Make sure the welder isn't cranked to the max as it's such a little stud.

You can't lay the tractor on it's side, so use a pair of needle nose vise grips to hold the nut tight against the head with one hand. It looks like it will be almost flush with the outside of the nut. When you go to weld try to get the weld down as deep as possible inside the nut, make sure the speed on the welder is pretty slow. Weld in a circle motion until the entire nut is welded to the outside edge. Let cool down for 20 seconds or so and use the wrench correct for the nut and slowly start to loosen. Sometimes I end up rocking the wrench back and fourth lightly, then it should just come right out!

Worst case, stud brakes off flush or below the surface of the head you will have to drill and heli-coil it out. Pretty straight forward, just takes a little time and patience. Any problems or questions just let me know. If I lived closer I would just come over with my welder and do it for you.

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BigMike
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Re: 782D Exhaust Manifold Coming Apart

Post by BigMike »

Bryan.that's good news!
Don't toss that manifold.......I would be glad to try and repair it,gives me a good excuse to TIG some cast iron :mrgreen: .

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Re: 782D Exhaust Manifold Coming Apart

Post by JMotuzick »

Engine mike
That's the best wright up I've see you do! Putting that wamogo education to work!!!!

Great news on the stud removal! Good to see the fourm come through for you!

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Tom Scott
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Re: 782D Exhaust Manifold Coming Apart

Post by Tom Scott »

Bryan - I am glad it all worked out. :beer:
1872, 46", 50C decks, Haban dozer blade, 450 snow blower
2182-1, Kwik-Way Loader, 3-pt & rear pto, 442 tiller
2182-2, 54" deck, 551 snow blower
Past tractors:  1541, 2135
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Farmallgray
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Re: 782D Exhaust Manifold Coming Apart

Post by Farmallgray »

Tom,
Since you mentioned PB, Kroil, etc I thought I'd mention what we ended up using on this project. We have had this product at work for a couple years now but I had never tried it.
We have a pretty high volume local auto repair shop that buys about 2 cans a week from us. I had been wanting an excuse to try it and this project of Bryan's seemed like a
good test. It is made by CRC and is called Freeze-Off. The idea is that it super cools the bolt or whatever and the shrinkage breaks the bond. Now let me say I was very skeptical especially
when the bolt is in a large casting as in this case.

After I welded the nut on I let it cool till I could touch it. Then I tried turning it with a wrench. I put a good bit of pressure on the wrench and it didn't seem to want to move. So, following the instructions on the can I sprayed the stud for 15-20 seconds then left it sit for about 2 minutes. With less pressure on the wrench than before, the stud broke loose and backed right out. So it certainly made a noticeable difference. Now that was only one trial, but I will definetly continue to test it, and I'm now much less skeptical than before.

Here is a video about it;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0BaowQvL6c

I have always heard Kroil is good stuff but I have never had the opportunity to try it. I don't understand why it isn't more readily available.
See my IH, Cub Cadet and tractor pulling youtube videos;
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Tom Scott
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Re: 782D Exhaust Manifold Coming Apart

Post by Tom Scott »

Todd - Thanks for the heads up on the Freeze-Off. This thread is a good example of having several tricks up your sleeve. I will keep the Freeze-Off in mind.

All through my excessive typing I knew that welding the nut was the best option, but so many people don't have that method readily available. I figured I would drag out all the lesser solutions all at once. Sometimes they work.

As for Kroil, I was first introduced to it at a speed/machine shop I worked at. I was told then (30 years ago...) that I wouldn't find anything better in a can for freeing rusted fasteners. I hear that acetone mixed with ATF beats it by some, if you want to bother making your own potions. At times I have run out of Kroil and have tried other products, just to be disappointed.

As can happen, they have a better product than marketing. People in industry and machine shops know the product, but you just don't see it in stores. I have given up looking for it and just gladly order it online right from the company link I provided earlier. I buy so much other stuff online, why not this as well...

Kroil is expensive, but worth every penny when I need something to come loose.

Also, what a bunch of good guys on this forum...
1872, 46", 50C decks, Haban dozer blade, 450 snow blower
2182-1, Kwik-Way Loader, 3-pt & rear pto, 442 tiller
2182-2, 54" deck, 551 snow blower
Past tractors:  1541, 2135
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Tom Scott
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Re: 782D Exhaust Manifold Coming Apart

Post by Tom Scott »

Bryan - I would definitely use anti-seize on the new ones. Oil won't last with the exhaust heat, and might even turn to coke and glue them in! Anti-seize is amazing stuff; I use it on anything I suspect will give me a problem in the future. You never know when you may have to come back by there again!
1872, 46", 50C decks, Haban dozer blade, 450 snow blower
2182-1, Kwik-Way Loader, 3-pt & rear pto, 442 tiller
2182-2, 54" deck, 551 snow blower
Past tractors:  1541, 2135
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