2182-2: "An Incredible Cinderella Story..."

[Tom Scott]

Also; both the older (1872) and newer (Cyclops) service manuals call for starting with about 0.014" of shims on each side of the carrier. Mine had about 0.060" on each side, measured with dial calipers. The large number of shims explains the looseness of the ring gear carrier assembly, but why it would be set up that way escapes me.

Both carrier bearings and races look fabulous, no wear and the crosshatching is still on the outer races.

All I know for sure is that both axles have been out before, they were marked R & L on the inside of the flange. The rest was either a bad day at the factory or an improper repair.

[dag1450]

11/9/13
Dear Diary, I love my new super. I just have to fix a small oil leak. Tom

11/17/13
Dear Diary, I hate my new super. I just give up ! Tom

[bbaker]

Tom, I may have a new seat cushion for that seat you can have too. It's just the cushion but measure yours and we'll see if what I have is the same. It looks the same. I can't think shipping it to you would cost much?

[dag1450]

Hey Tom sorry for teasing.
It just seems like you cant get out of the woods on this rear. What do u think your going to do about that play ? reshim ? Dave

[Tom Scott]

Dave, don't ever apologize for some good ribbing! You made me laugh, it was good.
(Dear Diary - Dave was mean to me, look for a way to get him back... )

I am not yet sure what I am going to do. If I can't live with that ring gear the only thing left that is good is the hydro, rear case, axles and axle carriers. I would be best off just getting a whole new rear assembly, except for maybe the hydro and axles. I did some Googlin' and it is surprising how much pitting people are willing to use in classic cars. With the much lower wheel speed of our machines I may get a lifetime out of that ring gear if set up properly.

Before I do anything, I am going to see what a small ceramic stone does to that area of the ring gear. Gear teeth are engineered with an exact profile, so there is no hope of trying to smooth down and get rid of the pitting; instead, I want to just make sure the raised up areas around the pitting are smooth.

In theory, if I smooth the raised areas to where they are supposed to be, the pinion will never contact the pitting because it is lower than the original profile.

I don't really have anything to lose but the good time of doing it again later.

Bryan - That is very generous on the seat. I don't really like the style seat they went to, but your offer is enticing. I will get back to you when I can get past this rear issue. I actually really like the seat on 2182-1 (loader tractor) but I am not sure what it was originally used on. Has Cub script, but back is very high. May have been on the 5000 series machines. It is a very comfortable seat.

[bbaker]

Tom, if that was my tractor here's what I would do. I'd set that thing as close as I could to what it's supposed to be spec'ed at and call it good. If this was a race car it would be a different story, but it's not. I think the time spent smoothing those gears will mostly be a waste of your time. At the speed these things run (slow) and the torque they have (not much) I can't see them failing no worse they appear to be worn in the pictures and you won't have enough speed to hear them whine.

My guess is there is too many spacer/shims that are holding the bearing retainers out to far causing your side-to-side play.

But... Since you are that far into it at this point I now would switch to a cast iron rear. Not much more work at this point than you currently have and would be MUCH stronger. Plus you'd gain 40-50 pounds on the rear axle, which will help offset the balance of your blower.

I picked up a 1812 over the weekend that looks really nice but has some motor issues. I am thinking about changing it to a cast iron rear even though I don't think there is anything wrong with the aluminum housing. The weight gain, and the strength gained will help it to be a plow tractor both with the snow plow and the Brinly plow.

Of course I am also thinking power steering, and a Cyclops (super steer) front axle too.

[VScott]

Tom, I tend to agree with BB on the cast iron rear as far as strength, and extra weight. However, the housing that you use would have to be from a super (982 is the only one that I'm aware of that used a cast rear) if you ever wanted to add rear pto. The two downward facing threaded holes are not in the standard GT rears if memory serves me. I'm sure that they could be drilled and tapped easily enough, but it is more work.

Give this some thought on your ring gear situation... If your tractor is running an average of 4 m.p.h. and you put 50 hours per year on this unit that would equal driving it 200 miles per year. I have seen automotive and truck rear ends that were a lot worse than yours, and were driven more than 200 miles per day with no issues. I know you want your machines as close to new as possible, and you do a great job from what I have seen. But honestly, you are the only one who will know what that ring gear looks like. With pitting, the worst thing that I really remember was an old 9" Ford rear that had a badly pitted ring gear. It had a slight howl at 60 mph.

Your time schedule sounds like mine did three years ago. All of the above, and 4 broken vertebrae right in the middle of it all due to an unfortunate fall, and mine was in little league baseball instead of soccer.

Keep your chin up and always remember...MMMM...Fender Flares!!!!!!


EDIT: Also, if you think about the fluid in the rear housing, the fluid is going to be a buffer between the ring and pinion. Just like a rod or main bearing in an engine. There really should be no metal to metal contact, the oil forms a barrier between the metal parts. I have to think that there is enough of a "fluid cushion", to make up for a lot of wear.

[bbaker]

Tom, I tend to agree with BB on the cast iron rear as far as strength, and extra weight. However, the housing that you use would have to be from a super (982 is the only one that I'm aware of that used a cast rear) if you ever wanted to add rear pto. The two downward facing threaded holes are not in the standard GT rears if memory serves me. I'm sure that they could be drilled and tapped easily enough, but it is more work.

Give this some thought on your ring gear situation... If your tractor is running an average of 4 m.p.h. and you put 50 hours per year on this unit that would equal driving it 200 miles per year. I have seen automotive and truck rear ends that were a lot worse than yours, and were driven more than 200 miles per day with no issues. I know you want your machines as close to new as possible, and you do a great job from what I have seen. But honestly, you are the only one who will know what that ring gear looks like. With pitting, the worst thing that I really remember was an old 9" Ford rear that had a badly pitted ring gear. It had a slight howl at 60 mph.

Your time schedule sounds like mine did three years ago. All of the above, and 4 broken vertebrae right in the middle of it all due to an unfortunate fall, and mine was in little league baseball instead of soccer.

Keep your chin up and always remember...MMMM...Fender Flares!!!!!!


EDIT: Also, if you think about the fluid in the rear housing, the fluid is going to be a buffer between the ring and pinion. Just like a rod or main bearing in an engine. There really should be no metal to metal contact, the oil forms a barrier between the metal parts. I have to think that there is enough of a "fluid cushion", to make up for a lot of wear.

yep.. forgot about the no rear pto option with a standard cast rear... otherwise direct swap..

[Tom Scott]

Bryan, Vinny, thanks for the comments.

Right now I am "all hat and no cowboy"... All talk, no action. Life keeps getting in the way of garage time.

Right now I don't have time to expand the project to include an iron rear. The Cyclops axle carriers won't work without machine work. Bolt and go I would do, but I don't have time for getting machine work done and I want to keep the stronger axles.

I am going to put it back together correctly, and I too believe that the ring gear will last my lifetime. Someday when I have more time I want to build up a cast iron rear. The parts will be around for a long time to get it done.

So, forgive me for being a slacker. It may be until after Thanksgiving before I make any more significant progress.

[dag1450]

I dont blame u for wanting to stay stock ! Call me old, tired, or boring, seems to me whenever i get into a custom truck project be it a lift kit, engine swap, or axle change out one thing just keeps leading to another to another. Thats just me getting old i guess. Dave

[Tom Scott]

Finally got some garage time yesterday, some progress.

New adapter housing from Ray's. Looks to be an older casting, and is actually thicker by 0.020" to 0.050" in the hydro mount area and the side mounts. Not a huge difference, but I will gladly take more strength.

One thing that bugs me on these is the three unnecessary "drain back" holes in the adapter housing where the hydro bolts up. Not likely to be a problem, but it does significantly reduce the sealing area and make a leak more likely. They are already drilled the correct size for a 1/4" pipe plug, so...

Tapping adapter housing 112213.JPG (2.07 MiB) Viewed 11627 times

Tapping pipe thread is tedious due to the taper. With regular threads you are just tapping at the front of the tap but with pipe thread you are continually cutting the full depth of the hole and continually cutting it larger. I kept checking my tap depth until the face of the plugs would land just flush with the hydro mounting area. I will smooth it over with Permatex #2 during assembly.

Installed drain plugs rear 112213.JPG (1.65 MiB) Viewed 11627 times

Installed drain plugs front 112213.JPG (1.59 MiB) Viewed 11627 times

In addition to the work of tapping, the tap raises a small area of metal on the hydro side which requires flattening and trimming of the tapping edge.

If I was to do it again I would use cup type core plugs ("freeze plugs") and lightly stake them from behind if needed. Just too tedious tapping something that a press in plug would take care of.

[Tom Scott]

Sorry for documenting things many of you already know, but it could help someone... And, for clarity: front, rear, right and left refer to how it is when installed in the tractor.

Bearings are sets, so you shouldn't use the race from one bearing with another. That means removing the front race from the replacement housing and discarding and removing the race from the old housing and installing in the new housing. A bearing race and seal install/removal tool is the right tool for the job; it is aluminum to avoid damaging the races. Note the coned side is flipped away from the race for removal. Not necessary, but I don't want to beat on the install side if I don't have to.

Old pinion race removal.JPG (2.09 MiB) Viewed 11627 times

Installing bearing races and seals can be difficult for the first timer. The trick is to always keep the race square, and this tool has some drawbacks. Invariably the race will start to enter the bore more in one area than another. When this happens, use a non-ferrous driver on the high edge of the race driver that is high. You may damage the race if you continue to beat on the center of the install tool. The cone side is down to install the race and everything must be very clean and oiled to avoid damaging the race.

Driving pinion race 112213.JPG (1.51 MiB) Viewed 11627 times

Once it has straightened out you can go back to striking the center of the install tool. Make sure the casting is supported directly under the driving area to avoid damaging it. Strike firmly enough to be sure the race is seated all the way in the bore.

Now, back to the garage to clean up the differential case...

[dag1450]

You r into it now ! Looking good ! I never really thought the way they bolted the pump on like that with the bolts so far away and even on a different plane was a good set-up. As a result u get leaks with changing of the temperature. Most of the time the bolts go right though a seal or gasket. Good pics. Dave

[Tom Scott]

Got some more done last night and today...

I draw filed all sealing surfaces of differential case and the adapter housing. In general, serious filing of aluminum is not done because it is gummy and will quickly clog the file. It is ok when you are just looking for high spots. Use a medium coarse file without too much pressure and it knocks down any high spots real quick.

Draw filing case.JPG (1.91 MiB) Viewed 11605 times

Drilled 5/16" holes for axle carrier drains, otherwise they just collect sludge that doesn't leave when you change the fluid. Drill in the flat area away from any casting corners so you don't create an area for a stress crack. Also, aluminum doesn't do well with black oxide drill bits, sticks to them bad. For metal work, get some good quality bright high speed steel ground on 118*. Leave the "split point" 135* crap on the shelf for the wood butchers (Sorry Dave, I told you I was going to get you back! )

Axle carrier drains.JPG (1.85 MiB) Viewed 11605 times

You almost have to go to Graingers or the internet for good 118* bits now. All Home Despot wants to sell is the 135* stuff.

[bbaker]

Good idea on the drain back holes. You are correct that is an area that never gets the fluid changed in.

Looks like you are doing a bang up job, and you sure are keeping things clean.

[Tom Scott]

Just like building an engine or anywhere else accurate bolt tension is needed, all the casting threads must be dressed. Run a tap through and look for any areas that weren't tapped deep enough. Likewise, don't force a tap into the bottom of a blind hole, know when to stop.

Dressing differential case threads.JPG (1.73 MiB) Viewed 11607 times

Again just like building engines, clean, clean, clean. Especially with hydros, the small contaminants are the worst. The big stuff will get caught in the filter (if it doesn't trash a bearing in the rear first) but some of the smallest stuff may get through and put a hurtin' on the hydro. Regular dishwashing detergent (Dawn, Palmolive, etc.) and the hottest water your hands can stand cleans well and rinses good. You don't want leftover detergent contaminating your new Hy-Tran oil.

Cleaning diff case.JPG (1.95 MiB) Viewed 11607 times

I actually ended up with two baths; after a preliminary scraping then again after filing and tapping the holes.

[Tom Scott]

Well, since I brought up bolts, we need a segway. In strict terms, a fastener threaded into a casting is a screw. Kind of like an internal combustion engine is an engine, not a motor, but "General Motors" may get the upper hand on this.

In strict terms, it is not a bolt unless you have a nut, but we will call them bolts for the discussion. Back on track...

The problem starts with the end goal: clamping force. That is all we really want out of our bolts. The problem is the clamping force can't easily be measured directly. But...a known clamping force will produce a known tension in a bolt of a known cross sectional area. But, you can't measure bolt tension directly very easily either.

Torque measurement. Measure the resistance to turning. Sounds good, but this has some problems. When we measure the torque required to tighten a bolt, most of the torque you are measuring has been used to overcome the friction of the threads and bolt head bearing area. About 70% of the final tightening effort is against friction.

This is why it is so important to dress threads and clean the bolts. If we can remove as much variation from the material as possible then torque becomes a fairly reliable indication of bolt tightness.

That was my sermon for cleaning the threaded holes and bolts. So, for the holes, run a tap through. If you meet resistance, go back and forth until it feels like the others. Just cleaning the threads can usually be done without lube, but if the hole needs additional tapping or serious fixing, get some oil in there.

For the bolts, I keep a wire wheel on one side of my bench grinder. Starting with our original case to adapter bolts with remnants of Loctite and gunk:

Dirty bolts.JPG (2.42 MiB) Viewed 11612 times

The dreaded wire wheel for burnishing:

Bolt burnishing.JPG (1.94 MiB) Viewed 11612 times

And the end result:

Clean bolts.JPG (2.26 MiB) Viewed 11612 times

If I had just chemically cleaned these, that would be good, but the wire wheel cleans and polishes the surface, providing a good smooth interaction with the female threads.

Oh, and don't even think about running a die over the bolts. Automotive and machinery bolts (generally Grade 5) have rolled threads, not cut, and are of a slightly different profile. If you try to run a die over them you will just ruin the die and the bolt.

[Tom Scott]

Crap, I brought up "Grade 5" bolts, now we gotta talk about that a little.

Junky ungraded bolts and Grade 2 bolts don't generally have head markings (that are meaningful). The lowest grade bolt you will generally see in use for automotive and equipment is a Grade 5 which can be identified by three radial lines on the head, like a "Peace" sign. Grade 8 bolts have six radial lines on the head. Any other markings can be ignored and are just manufacturer or marketing marks.

As an example, the first two bolts on the left are Grade 5 bolts; three radial lines. The triangle on the leftmost one and the center symbol on the next are just manufacturer marks that can be ignored. The next two bolts are Grade 8, six radial lines. Bolt three has some manufacturer marks around the perimeter, and number four is from the Lawson company who just went crazy with additional dots between the radial lines and their trademark "L" in the center. The additional "dots" are probably marketing to make you think they are even stronger, but they are just Grade 8 bolts, nothing more or less.

Grade 5, left, Grade 8, right.JPG (2.1 MiB) Viewed 11612 times

Since Grade 8 bolts are stronger than Grade 5, is it always better to replace a 5 with an 8? No.

What does strength mean? We want bolts that will provide the clamping force we need. The clamping force is caused by the fact that steel has a broad "elastic region". The elastic region is where we can stretch the bolt and if we loosen it, it will return to its original shape. Essentially you are tightening a spring when you tighten a bolt. The prescribed tightening torques are intended to get the bolt well into its elastic region which will keep tension on the bolt.

If you go and replace a Grade 5 bolt that is threaded into aluminum with a Grade 8, you still can't tighten the bolt to a higher torque because the aluminum (or iron) casting is your limiting factor. So now you have installed a much stronger "spring", but you won't be able to torque it enough to get very far into the elastic region. This means that if the tension is reduced at all due to loosening or gasket crush or whatever, that Grade 8 bolt will lose tension quicker than the Grade 5.

If you have a situation where you are truly through bolting and replace a Grade 5 with a Grade 8 bolt and nut, and you torque it to the higher Grade 8 tension, then yes, you will have more clamping force and a stronger connection.

I mention this because this tractor had the top two axle carrier bolts that go through the frame replaced at some point with Grade 8 bolts. The owner/shop at the time probably thought they had done well by putting a stronger bolt in, but all they did was make it even more prone to loosen.

[Tom Scott]

This rear was so bad I took out 0.090" of carrier shims. Of the 0.120" of shims I found in there, I ended up with the Cub recommended starting point of 0.014" on each side. Rather than devise some goofy knot for attaching the rope for checking carrier bearing preload, I bent a simple S hook out of heavy coat hanger:

Hook end of rope for differential preload check.JPG (3.07 MiB) Viewed 11478 times

I hooked the end on the carrier window and wrapped the rope about three turns around the differential (by turning the differential to spool up the rope). I used several turns so that less pressure was on the hook in the carrier window. I made a loop in the rope and attached that to the spring scale. The length of rope leading off to the right is just the extra rope I didn't want to cut off my length. The initial pull to break the static friction might be a little higher, but with this setup you can check the resistance as it is turning. It felt consistent, I had around 9 pounds everywhere.

Checking carrier bearing preload 2.JPG (2.27 MiB) Viewed 11478 times

My spring scale is a not of good quality so I weighed a ten pound weight on a balance scale I have and then used that to check my cheap "fish scale". Surprisingly the cheap fish scale was within a 1/4 pound, good enough for this.
Worked clean bagging all cleaned parts as I went. Larger items went in large clean plastic shopping bags.

Bag-n-tag.JPG (2.04 MiB) Viewed 11612 times

For anyone new to this, here is the exploded view in real life. The shims serve to push the outer races away relieving force on the bearings. By removing shims you increase the bearing preload.

Carrier exploded view.JPG (2.21 MiB) Viewed 11612 times

[Tom Scott]

Final wrap up of the weekend...

Cub recommended Permatex/Loctite 515 Gasket Maker, but since then they have come out with 518 which works better on aluminum. This is "anaerobic" which means the lack of oxygen is what causes it to cure. The confined space of the sealed area lacks oxygen, so it starts the curing. The sealer also interacts with the base metal, but aluminum is not very reactive, so the prep spray helps the reaction along. That little spray can is $20, but you really should use it for aluminum.

518 anaerobic gasket maker and prep spray.JPG (2.25 MiB) Viewed 11619 times

That same prep spray helps make threadlockers hold better as well.

So, the end result of the weekend is the pinion, reduction gear, and adapter housing are reinstalled, and I know what pinion retaining clip thickness to order.

Checking pinion bearing clearance.JPG (1.79 MiB) Viewed 11619 times

I gave a poor answer to Dave's question of the pinion retaining clip earlier (due to a poor CCC service manual). I mistakenly thought they intended for the pinion to be tapped rearwards as a poor mans measure of backlash to the ring gear, but they intend for the pinion to be pushed forward as much as possible, then install the next thicker clip to provide pinion bearing preload.

This is in contrast to the earlier cast iron rears where the 1X9 and Quietline manuals intend for 0.003" of pinion end play. I believe this difference is because the CCC machines went to straight cut gears instead of helical. The helical gears would have tended to always push the pinion towards the front of the tractor.

With straight cut gears there is no predominate force pushing the pinion axially. Any end play would result in the pinion banging back and forth like a hammer in the rear. CCC rightly wants some bearing preload, so they want you to force the next thicker clip into place than what will fit easily. I get it now, new clip will be ordered.

Sorry for the length, but I know this job scares some people, so it is worth taking the mystery out of it.

Well, I am likely done work on this until after Thanksgiving. Apparently the wife wants to be able to cook in the kitchen, so I need to get back to that job.

[dag1450]

Sweet, While u were kicking butt in the shop this weekend i got to go furniture shopping . Now i know the weekend was not a complete waste Good idea on the fish scale, does the manual give u a spec for that lbs.? Dave

[9803412]

Great write up on the how to. Just wondering who suggested the oil drain holes in the case to you? LMAO.

[rweaver]

that was a write up like eric lewis would have done nice job almost above my head but very well done

[Tom Scott]

Sam, Ray, thanks, we'll have to see what the end result is. I might just be documenting one of my failures...

Dave, I was trying to get a reaction out of you with my "wood butcher" comment, you didn't give me the satisfaction! And now that I know you were held hostage in stores with real expensive stuff that eats up tractor funds, I feel bad for you!

The spec for the carrier bearing preload is in the manual and the procedure is to use a scale as I did to get 4 to 14 pounds resistance. My only deviation from the manual was the wire hanger grabbing the carrier window so I didn't have to mess with rope or string.

Sam and I have been doing a little emailing, and he suggested the drains. I remember reading about this way back before I ever took one of these apart, perhaps it was even one of his posts. Even if I hadn't read it before, when you see a case with a common fluid and one part has a trap full of nasty remains, you should be thinking how you can drain it!

I will admit that I didn't do it on 2182-1 when I needed to replace one axle carrier. I thought of it then, but that rear was so clean I didn't really think about it very long. And, I would have been bothered knowing one side had the drain and the other didn't (character flaw of mine, I should have done it while I was there!).

[PTWannaHave]

Sorry for documenting things many of you already know, but it could help someone...

It definitely will...!! This is documentation gold for enthusiasts with no help other than fellow enthusiasts in far away lands...

Many thanks,

[BigMike]

Tom, I had thought this morning that this would be a great thread for a "how to" article.
Your writing is easy to read and very informative and your photography is good also.....very CubRickish

I got a chuckle from your statements about engines/motors and screws/bolts. A pet peeve of mine is when people ask for a nozzle for their mig gun and say "I need a cone for my whip" or "I need a can of gas and a can of air"....cyls of oxygen and acetylene. Proper nomenclature can make or break good communication and I have been in situations where it has caused issues.

[Tom Scott]

Mike, Ben - Thanks for the vote of confidence. Now that pics can be posted easily, I am trying to do more to keep our forum going. I am using an iPhone 4S with the new HDR setting for pics. The "HDR on" is good for close ups without flash and lightens all the dark areas. I was getting frustrated with the flash and the HDR is the ticket for these close in detail shots, no flash needed, no hot spots or dark areas. I am not a photo buff, these are just snapshots from a phone, but that HDR setting really works.

I worked with some properly trained industrial mechanics, one of which insisted that everyone learn and use correct terminology. It was fun to watch him berate the young guys into submission, knowing that in the long run he was helping them and teaching them.

I do like some colloquial nomenclature. When I first saw gas cylinders with "MT" scrawled on them it was explained to me very simply: "They are empty...MT". I got a kick out of that one.

[Cookieman]

Tom,

I am not even a cub fan but I really enjoyed reading your thread...........I liked the way that you took the time to actually explain what you were doing and why. And all of the other little comments were enjoyed as well! Keep up the good work!

[vince_o]

See Robert, its good to move around!

[VScott]

Nice write-up, Tom!

I never would have thought to plug the drainback holes, that sure is "going the extra mile"!

You mention a lot of things that the average shade tree mechanic wouldn't know. The one that sticks in my mind is that bolt (...err, ahhh, ummm, I mean capscrew) threads are rolled, rather than cut. I am pretty fond of my wire wheel,too. Looking good, keep up the good work, I hate to see you have to go through all of the work, but you taking the time to document it will no doubt help people in the future.

Vinny