2182-2: "An Incredible Cinderella Story..."

[Tom Scott]

Well let's hope so... I have been delinquent in posting. I think I have a "tractor hangover" after the search.

So, this will be my "Dear Diary" thread for the new Super. I don't have the time or patience for a step by step documentation, more of a loose week by week report. Feel free to chime in, this is not one of those "other forum" build threads where people want no interruption to their monologue.

To start, it shall be named 2182-2 and by definition, my first is now 2182-1. It also works chronologically as -1 is one of the first ever built and -2 is one of the last.

Most importantly, I must lead with the picture of the beast as it arrived in Maryland, forever forged in my mind with Vinny's quote:

MMMMMM! Fender flares!!!

2182 home from Ohio.JPG (2.49 MiB) Viewed 11905 times

This is my first Super with fender flares, and I wasn't sure if I would warm up to them. I now think I like having one with them and one without; it gives a contrast to the early vs late Cyclops Supers, and it gives -1 and -2 their own personality. I just can't stop repeating Vinny's quote every time I see them..."MMMMMM! Flares!!!!", over and over!

A new tractor can be overwhelming...Where to start? The right front tire was going flat pretty quick, so I thought I would stick my toe in and start with that and tube it for now. By the end of the night, somehow we ended up here :

2182-2 day 4.JPG (748.78 KiB) Viewed 11905 times

Its a Hy-Trans leaker, and bad. I am actually glad that it is bad, or I would be tempted to use the tractor now and I would be continually dreading the teardown. Forget sticking just the toe in. Dive in, head first, let's get this done and over with. It looks to be the gasket between the hydro and the adapter housing, as Matt predicted. I have my gaskets and some other goodies from Ray Weaver's and my dealer, so here we go...

[dag1450]

Looks like a project, what other plans do u have for #2 ? axle seals, rear cover plate removal ? Do both 1 and 2 have the heaver axle tubes , not sure when cub swiched that. Make sure to keep the pictures coming ! I want to give a big thank you to whoever fixed the "picture uploader attachment thing ". Dave

[stevet]

Looks like you've got some quality time with youur new super ahead of you! so much for tubing a tire, huh? anyway, sorry i missed a chance at meeting another maryland cubber, since you managed to make it to ray's the day after i did! hopefully he didn't suck your wallet empty either!

[Tom Scott]

Dave - Yes I plan on pulling the cover and axle seals, but as you will read below, life just got a little worse. And yes, to my knowledge, all the Cyclops got the improved axles; it was a consolation prize in exchange for the plastic front end.

Steve - Yeah, I think you called while I was standing there at Ray's. Maybe someday I can make it to a get together or plow day that has some of our Maryland and Pa guys.

I got the rear end assembly out, so here is the big picture:

2182-2 in two.JPG (2.58 MiB) Viewed 11875 times

The problem is in the close up picture, a crack along the top of the forward tranny mount in the adapter housing:

2182-2 crack, tranny adapter housing.JPG (1.36 MiB) Viewed 11875 times

And this is the unhappiness.

The good news is that the adapter housing is common to both the regular GT and Supers, but to do it right, I guess I will need to recheck the pinion depth after replacing the housing.

I welcome any feedback from anyone that has been through the process. The pinion retainer clip is sold in different thicknesses to set the pinion depth, but I am not sure how likely it is that the depth will change with a new adapter housing. I think I know the answer, I am going to have to check it.

So, I am now depressed. I wasn't looking for a giant project, just a shave and a haircut, and put it to work. I could put it back together as is for now, but then I would just dread tearing it down again. Looks like no choice but to keep going and do it right.

[SWilliams]

Take it to a good welding shop and have it TIG'd back together.

[Tom Scott]

Steve - That came to mind after I found the crack, but all I could think of was how I used to work at shops where this would have been taken care of at lunch without even disassembling it (by better welders than I). I learned to weld on TIG, but never did enough to get to aluminum.

Then I focused on the increased work of just removing the adapter and replacing it (since I no longer work in a shop environment).

Then an hour later it dawned on me that I might have to go through the hassle of getting the pinion clip thickness correct again.

The adapter housing is a $25 item on epay, delivered. The real cost is in the time of getting the rear right again. Perhaps I should just consider getting this one welded. I would prefer to find someone that will weld it while I wait. If I could do that, I would take the whole rear without disassembling. Otherwise, I would take it apart; I wouldn't want to leave the whole rear in a shop.

Well off to bed now, but perhaps Mr. Williams suggestion will allow me to sleep easier.

[dag1450]

Man that stinks ! I am a builder/carpenter for a living and i know for a fact that a proper glue joint in wood can b strongher than the wood itself. I have a little arc welding skills and that seems like it bonds very good also. I just dont see how with a topical weld on cheap cast aluminum this will b a long term repair. Like i said i dont have lots of knowledge in this area so maybe someone who does could outline the proper process for making this weld as strong as the piece itself. Man that stinks ! That is a small crack and may not affect the proformance of the rear but just knowing its there would drive me nuts. Who knows all of mine might have the same crack.Dave

[Mcamp]

I would have it welded. If you want to make it indestuctable, buy extreme motor works rear end torque arm kit, they can be used to fix this problem even if the mounting ear is broken clean off.

[Tom Scott]

A weld is not a bond like glue; welding melts the base metal of the part being welded and adds additional material at the same time. The point of a proper weld is that when you are done you have added material that is fully integrated into the original part.

Brazing and soldering are examples of metal joining where the liquefied (melted) material added does not mix with the original material and is essentially "gluing" itself onto the part being repaired.

Successful welds are the product of many steps performed correctly; cleaning all contaminants such as paint and oil away, prepping the weld joint properly, choosing the correct weld method (TIG, in this case), the right amperage for adequate penetration and finally, welding a good bead that transitions evenly and smoothly to the base metal.

In this case, the correct material prep will be to grind out the crack into a "V" channel. The welder will then start at the bottom of the V and work his way up in multiple passes if needed. A shallow crack like this may be able to be done is just one or two passes.

The Xtreme Motorworks axle reinforcement is a good idea, but I wouldn't want to use it in place of the front mount. I like the idea as additional reinforcement, but they are a bit pricey for what they are.

[dag1450]

Im sure welding it will work, it just sounds like a lot of varables and all of that prep work cost money. I dont doubt a good weld on aluminum it is the cast that im not sure about. I thought u were supposed to heat up the part before and control the cool down after. It might b a good idea to pick that one up for cheap as a back up plan if the weld does not turn out like u hope or for next year. Dave

[Tom Scott]

Now I look at my topic title and it looks a bit stupid. At the time I figured it would be appropriate because I thought it would just need a new gasket, a bunch of crud from the leak cleaned up and some new plastic up front. All I could see was Bill Murray standing in the flowers mumbling about "an incredible Cinderella story" in Caddyshack. Oh well...

Anyway, I carved away at the crack and it goes all the way down to both bolt holes diagonally. Here is what it looks like now after prepping for possible welding:

2182-2 tranny crack prep 1.JPG (2.51 MiB) Viewed 11839 times

2182-2 tranny crack prep 2.JPG (2.48 MiB) Viewed 11839 times

If you zoom into both sides you can see I cut a good bit of meat out of there. Removed all the paint in the area and nice and clean. I Googled up some local weld shops and I will call tomorrow and hopefully take it to one. I am going to review the rear set-up procedure in the manual and decide what my pain point is for buying my way out of the problem with a weld.

I stopped chewing on the cracked area because I was starting to break through to the bolt hole up front and I was reaching the limit of the cutter I have for the Dremel. If I go with weld, it should be strong enough because I will have it built back up past the hard corner that Cub left when they made it and have a nice fillet. I will then probably redrill the front hole and Heli-Coil it.

Somehow I think the labor for welding is going to get expensive quickly. If we get too high, I will be buying a new adapter and going through the pain of checking the rear setup.

[VScott]

Tom, Have you checked the pinion depth on the current rear? You see where I'm going with this thinking?

[Tom Scott]

Actually, I did look through the hydro mounting hole and I could see what looked to be a normal wear pattern on the ring gear where I would expect it to be.

I have never gone through setting up a rear, so I am not fully sure of the repercussions of replacing the adapter housing. If it is just checking it and getting the correct thickness pinion clip for the existing setup, that's not too bad. If I have to tear it all down and start moving carrier shims, that sounds worse.

I am not afraid of a job just because I haven't done it yet, I just want the easiest path out of the problem with a quality end result.

I welcome any schooling I need here.

[BigMike]

I wouldn't sweat welding it.I had a guy stop at work that has a 420 Greenie that has a broken tab very similar to yours but his was broken off.I made a jig plate to hold it in place,burred it back,cleaned it good(NO CARB CLEANER PLEASE!),loaded an 1/8" tungsten some 5356 filler and away we went.That was 2 years ago and I have seen him since with nary a comment.
Aluminum is a good conductor and a case the size of this takes a machine with enough amperage to get at it now,to me preheating would not be a good thing.
It may take more than one pass to cook out the Hy-Tran and get a clean weld.

[Bsmith]

Tom,

I had the same issue with my 2072, only a little worse. Where your crack is, my whole flange broke off.

It was backyard repaired before I got the tractor. A little welding and an additional bolt further back into more "meat" on the housing.

I did not like it. It might have held, but it bothered me. I pulled the rear out of the tractor and also found the back bolt holes against the frame were wallowed out as well. I did some research and found that when the back four bolts come loose the front flange mounts can't take the stress and they crack and break where yours and mine did.

I was also going to replace the front housing but did not really want to get into putting everything back in in there.

I ended up getting another complete rear end, with no cracks. I took the opportunity to paint her up, put new seals in and she was good to go. I also added a rear bagger plate to stiffen the back end of the frame up and prevent anymore loose bolts. I baby the tractor anyway and do not expect anymore problems with this rear. I know these are "super tractors", but some people beat them around like they are bulldozers. It seems a lot of the supers you find have lead a hard life.

I got my replacement rear end from Ray Weaver up here in PA. I see you are in MD and it would not be a long trip for you. I know he would probably have a good replacement rear available.

I hope my information will help you out.

Here are some pics of my finished product.

[dag1450]

Hey Brandon, Nice to see you here. I still have your tractor as my screen saver. It looks great. No hard feelings about the rear i hope. im going to get one of those plates from Ray, it looks good in black. Dave

[Tom Scott]

Well, it always pays to wake up and reevaluate where you are at with something like this. I didn't like that I hadn't chased the crack back all the way and I went out to chew on it some more. I also took a better look at the rest of it and it became more obvious why this one had been a leaker at the hydro gasket.

I cleaned out the bolt holes that the hydro bolts up with and it became obvious that the hydro had been loose for awhile, as the threads were a little beat up towards the tops of the holes. Upon real close inspection, one of them was cracked as well.

That was it, that housing is toast. If they were rare it could be saved like Mike says, but it's not, so it will be replaced. I know what shop rates are and it is time to move on.

I reviewed the service manual, and I think when I change the housing I will not have to mess with the carrier shims. I will have to make sure that I have the right thickness bearing retainer clip for the pinion bearing, and that should be pretty easy. I will plan on checking the gear pattern afterwards, but I suspect it will be fine if I return the pinion back to its correct depth.

I visited Ray today and brought home the replacement housing. After I determine the correct thickness pinion bearing retainer clip I will have to sit on my hands waiting for the parts to show up. Hopefully life will start to look better by next week.

Brandon - Good looking rig. When I put the Cat-0 on 2182-1 I put the leftover rear frame plate on the 1872. I think it helps stiffen the rear, and a little free extra weight. I also like the higher hitch location that isn't pulling on that aluminum differential. I like mine yellow just because it seems like it is so much easier to see and work on things that are yellow or white vs black. Also, it was yellow already, less work!

[mpfeiffer]

Tom- I never suspected that housing was cracked like that. Guess you really cant tell until they are all torn down and you can really see. I had to replace the front cover on my 1772, and it was not too awful of a job. When I put mine back together with the new front housing I used the original size retaining clip from my original cover and it was right on. It is a fact that tractors equipped with 3pt hitches are far less likely to have have these housing issues as that hitch really stiffens the rear of the tractor up. Let me know if I can be of any help.

[Tom Scott]

Matt - Yeah, I probably would have never noticed it if I wasn't in there to replace the hydro gasket. I checked all the bolts with a torque wrench hoping the leak would magically stop so I wouldn't have to tear into it. Only a few needed slight tightening and none seemed over torqued. Upon disassembly I discovered just enough oddities to make me suspect the rear had been out before...some lock washers were missing, one or two mismatched bolts and the axle tubes were marked "R" & "L" with yellow paint. The top two axle bolts had definitely been out because whoever did the work didn't use any sealer or Locktite on them.

There is no way you could know without digging in like I did. That is just part of the risk we take with making equipment this old our hobby.

As Bryan Baker said, when you have to get into them like this, when you're all done it actually feels more like it's "your tractor". So, it doesn't feel great now, but I know from past experience it is very rewarding when things start going back together.

I have never done the pinion clip job. I am curious what there is about the clip that does not allow it to be reused. I can't order a new one until get everything back in and see what thickness I need. And, curiously, some of the thicknesses are $6, and others are $20 for a single clip. I am sure they are common to other equipment, but it probably isn't worth the research for the rare times we need to replace these.

I will have to call around and find the Loctite 515 and primer tomorrow. If nothing else, Graingers will probably have it.

[dag1450]

I havent had a rear apart like this eather, is there a pinion bearing also in the adapter housing or just the clip. I would think that would have two bearings on the pinion, one in the rear and one on the adapter. I was wondering if u could prop the pinion from moving while u do this work but i know how that goes, u will need to pry the front off and move it all around. Good thing is its not a race car !Dave

[Tom Scott]

Dave - If you look at the exploded view in the manual (same as the IPL) you will see that the one bearing is towards the gear end of the pinion inside the rear case (behind the reduction gear) and the second bearing is set in the adapter housing immediately behind the expansion plug. The expansion plug is removed first then you are able to remove the clip which both retains the outer bearing and sets the bearing preload based on its thickness. You can't remove the adapter housing without removing this rear bearing.

Now that I fully understand, it doesn't look too bad. I thought it might mean that I have to mess with the carrier shims, but it really shouldn't change the pinion depth.

The hard part of doing this is getting the blocks of time in between family commitments and working for a living. That and having to wait for parts to arrive after I determine which bearing retainer clip I will need. They cost too much to just order a bunch before starting.

[Tom Scott]

And another thing that may help others in the future... Since the Cub manual was written Loctite/Permatex added another anaerobic liquid gasket in addition to 515. They now have 518 which is the same stuff but better suited to aluminum. It is also important to use the anaerobic primer on aluminum because aluminum doesn't provide enough chemical interaction with the sealer to cure it as quickly or with as much strength.

Loctite and Permatex were the same company for awhile (or one owned the other, whatever) but they have since split. Even so, many of their product numbers continue to be the same between companies.

[bbaker]

Tom, I have been following your thread, and I appreciate you taking the time to make a thread like this. You will undoubtly help others at least know how these tractors are built if nothing else. I also realize you are much farther into a repair than you wanted to be. While it's new territory for you, this is also a good thing. When you get done, you'll know the repair was done right, etc. We as adults also need to continually challenge our brains. Lots of studies have shown a multitude of good things come from learning new things.

I know you are too far down a path with fixing the aluminum rear, but the other path you could of chosen was to find a cast rear our of an older tractor and swapped your guts into that. You'd of had to source the smaller fine spline axles, but otherwise everything would have fit in the older cast iron housing. You would of gained about 40 lbs rear ballast that way too. It would have been more work however. You would of also had to find an older clap on set of brakes with the cast rear as well.

Anyway looking forward to seeing your continued posts on your repair of this tractor! I'd be trying to fit 82 series sheet metal to it myself!

[bbaker]

Keep the rear fenders though we already know you now have a fender flare fetish....

[dag1450]

Yea Tom i got out the manual today to see exactly what u r doing here. It does look pretty straight forward although the removing of the expansion plug looks fun.... . A few questions did come up, i guess when they say "push or tap the pinion assembly" in 6.161 they mean the bearing around the shaft and not the shaft itself. Then they want u to have all the clips and find the one that fits ,then go to the next thicker for load. Do u think u can stack feeler gauges or how do u think to do this ? Did u get the old one out ? If u have a thinner one u could build on that with feeler gauges. The prices of the clips makes no sence at all. Dave

[Tom Scott]

Bryan - This has never been a case of me not being sure if I could accomplish the job. It's worse than that; it is whiny laziness on my part.

It started with the attitude of "I have two Supers, so I can take my time shopping and get a cream puff that needs almost nothing." For the most part, I think that ship has sailed into sands of time. They will all need something unless we just stumble across a cream puff. And they are likely to show up when you aren't really looking or you don't have room for another one. Ask Dave about that...

So I have been drug kicking and screaming into more work than I planned on. And my resistance is based on the realities of life; this acquisition happened during soccer season for multiple children (Saturdays destroyed), homework and daily family struggle with aforementioned children (weeknights destroyed), and a partial kitchen renovation by yours truly (all other remaining time destroyed).

I was looking for the quickest path to a quality job so welding made sense until it became obvious it was not worth it. The main consequence of not actually having done this job before is it took me a bit of study to realize we weren't talking about the full blown carrier shim deal. If it was, I would man up (after more whining) and do it, but it turns out this should be pretty easy.

I agree we should continue to challenge our brains, but this job is just more of a schedule and garage space challenge. (It is amazing how much more room these take up when you separate all the pieces.) The cast iron rear is a great idea, but even more time that I don't have right now. That may be something I build up down the road when the kids get older.

No 82 sheet metal for this project. That is a fitment nightmare job for someone else. I do plan on making the plastic front end right; that will be after it has reached "worker status". And of course, "MMMMM....Flares!" (That phrase is just fun, I don't know why!)

[Tom Scott]

Deleted post on Edit: My answer concerning the pinion retaining clip was wrong; will explain during actual install...

[Tom Scott]

Tom, Have you checked the pinion depth on the current rear? You see where I'm going with this thinking?

Vinny wins, he called this one. Since I am there, I had to do my due diligence and check everything over. Popped the rear cover and found about 0.050" slop from side to side in the carrier. Photo with feeler gauges shows how I was measuring:

carrier bearing play.JPG (1.62 MiB) Viewed 11715 times

I was able to slide the carrier to the left, inserted feeler gauges for a baseline, slid it right and it was about 0.050" additional feeler gauges required.

Checking backlash was a little silly at this point, but I wanted to know how bad it was. With the carrier slop pushed all the way towards the right side, I measured a maximum of about 0.025" backlash. My indicator setup is not ideal and not tangential, so removing the angle error probably means it was closer to 0.030":

measuring backlash.JPG (2.35 MiB) Viewed 11715 times

One more, as found wear pattern:

as found wear pattern.JPG (2.12 MiB) Viewed 11715 times

[Tom Scott]

Ok, so now I will be setting up a rear from scratch, fine, nothing surprises me at this point.

I am concerned about the condition of the ring gear. There is some wear that I will refer to as spalling which is most likely caused by the excessive backlash causing impact damage from the pinion to the ring gear. Some pics:

ring gear 1.JPG (1.76 MiB) Viewed 11719 times

ring gear 2.JPG (1.69 MiB) Viewed 11719 times

ring gear 3.JPG (1.61 MiB) Viewed 11719 times

I would really like the opinion of someone who was set up a number of rears. The ring gear isn't perfect, but I suspect that it will probably be ok to reuse. Chances are that with the correct backlash it won't be putting the majority of the force in the same area.

The pinion is still installed, but from what I can see looking into the case, it looks good with just normal polished wear marks that you would expect.

[bbaker]

Yeah I'm going to say it... I wonder just how critical this is for normal use? I know pulling would be critical same as it is in our cars we drive down the road, but I just wonder how critical it is as long as it's half way close on these tractors?

I've pulled several rears apart but haven't ever checked one. That slop may very well be normal?