CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

This is where we can discuss all the stuff made after IH's sale to MTD.
AJGross
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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by AJGross »

I bet "long trip". I had to sleep in the Walmart parking lot since BB wasn't home!

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bbaker
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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by bbaker »

Ok so it's been a few days since I posted and I don't have any pictures for you tonight. I was able to take my 152 dollar 3165 apart and power wash it with all the sheet metal off. I then installed the Vanguard 18 out of the rusty 3185 and put it all back together. I mowed my yard last night with it, and I have to tell you it may very well be my most favoritest mowing tractor EVER!!!!! It needs a few little things addressed and I didn't do anything to pretty it up, but man is it a great machine to mow grass.


The 40th anniversary tractor (3240) I got from Ray has a busted rear. I knew it had issues when I bought it but it turns out the rear casting is literally busted. :( I found a 3225 parts tractor minus the engine close to the farm on CL and I bought it for the rear end. It's an aluminum rear but does have the diff lock. It has external dual brakes, where mine had a small disk brake up on the tranny housing itself. I took the back cover off the donor transmission for a look inside and all looked ok. I then sealed it all back up and have it installed in the tractor.

I went to buy Cub Cadet oil from the local idiot dealer and was told it was 13.79 a quart!!! :shock: I said no thanks, and I won't be back to that place. I then called the next closest dealer and they had it too and in gallons, and it was 11.59 a quart. Still too high for cheap ole BB so I googled about oil. It appears that hydro gear (who makes the tranny) recommends 20-50W motor oil. Cub recommends their synthetic oil. (of course they would it costs more an ounce than gold) So I bought Synthetic blend 20-50W motor oil for 6.79 a quart. Still pretty expensive!! Before I did though I called my chief Cub Cadet mechanic in South Carolina (any guesses who that is??) and he said it would work great and they just use regular 20-50W.

Hopefully tomorrow I can get the 3240 put back together and running. I'm really excited about that one. I still haven't figured out how to hook the 3pt cylinder up when the tractor already has 3 valves???? Any one ever do this before?
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bbaker
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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by bbaker »

So this morning I get up and get back to work on the 3240 and get it put back together. It is now a running and moving tractor. YAY!!! The PTO isn't working however so I am going to have to diagnose what is going on with that. I think it's probably in a safety switch someplace, but I am happy to have it running.

Here it is with the 3165 I just put back together with the 18hp Vanguard.
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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by bbaker »

Today was the LAGT extravaganza which is about 4 miles from my house. A well known tire vendor was there, which saved me shipping. I may be broke, but my new girl is gonna have sexy shoes....

23X10.50X12 Tru Powers for the rear and 17-6.50X8 V61 for the front.

I also got a set of 18X8.50 for the 982 and an extra set of the 17 for maybe the other 3000 series, IDK yet. :dontknow:
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bbaker
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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by bbaker »

Since you all seem to like pictures here is a picture of the 3225 being stripped of it's rear. I'll finish tearing this down and hopefully be able to sell some parts off it.
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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by stevet »

Looking good so far BB!!!! Hopefully the PTO is an easy fix for ya....

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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by dag1450 »

Looking good ! Gonna look even better with that rubber on. That rear on the p-u looks pretty heavy duty, and different. How does it look up close ? Dave :beer:
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bbaker
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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by bbaker »

Buy it!
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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by dag1450 »

Ok, that other craigs list add answers my own question.......that heavy duty looking rear must be missing the "heavy" part and only be the "duty" :lol:
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bbaker
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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by bbaker »

dag1450 wrote:Ok, that other craigs list add answers my own question.......that heavy duty looking rear must be missing the "heavy" part and only be the "duty" :lol:
Here's what I think at least so far with the limited experience I have with these machines. I spoke with a former Cub Dealer who also worked on a lot and he said out of all the 3000 Machines they sold he hadn't ever seen a busted rear end, and in his opinion they were as good as the older Cub Hydros. At the time I didn't think to ask if he had sold many with the differential lock. He was also located in a very rural area where I am sure most of the machines he sold went to more rural minded people. Folks that grew up on tractors usually know how and when to use the differential lock.

I think where Cub went wrong was the diff lock. It's not the most robust thing just looking at it, and what's worse is the cast iron rears like came in my tractor when you engage the brake it also engages that diff lock. (this is easy to change so it doesn't do that) My 782 has an internal brake that works much the same as the brake on the cast rear of these tractors. Of course it doesn't have a differential lock although I wish it did, but I've never needed it for braking. So what I plan to do and what I did was to remove the tab (it bolts on) that engages the diff lock with the brake. I understand why they did it, but in 99% of real world use it just isn't needed.

I have not torn into my cast rear yet but I am willing to bet it was the diff lock that let go. We'll see as I have every intent of at least finding out what happened to it.


The other weak link was the Gerotor in the hydrostat. Hydro gear admitted that it was a problem and once it's been replaced with the newer style people don't have to ever seem to change it again.
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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by bbaker »

So here is a picture of the rear end out of the 3240. it's cracked in the bottom and leaking fluid out. I opened it up but don't have a socket big enough for the hubs so I couldn't get it all the way open to take a good picture for you guys but... the following picture shows what got wedged in the bottom of the case busting it.

It's part of the diff and specifically the differential lock. I'll borrow the socket again from my buddy or buy one, it's an 1 5/16 in case anyone is wondering and you better have a pretty good impact gun to get them off. I had to change a hub on the rear I installed and those nuts are tight.

So it appears I can hopefully find someone who can weld cast, and get my rear welded, and then get the parts to fix it so my tractor can be original.
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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by bbaker »

The 782 got to shed his deck today as I mowed with the 3165 again.

I replaced the bushings in the reverse pedal, it now backs up much faster than it previously did. I also sharpened the blades on the deck, and greased it all but one spindle. Couldn't get that one to take grease. I liked mowing with it so much I mowed my yard an 4 other neighbor's yards last night! :mrgreen:

I have also figured out what I am going to do Cub wise. I will always keep that 782, but I also plan to keep the 3240, the 3165 and the 982. That will leave me with 4 Cubs, and I plan to mow with the 3165. The others will just be around for snow pushing, plow days, and generally looking pretty.

That's the best plan I can come up with and I am going to sell all the other tractors I currently have. I will keep my Ford New Holland GT-95 as it's a fine mowing tractor as well.

I have to sell a IH built dual hydraulic 782, an IH built 982, a 1812, 1872, 1810, 1862, 1864, 2084, and another 3165. Some of these will be parted as I need some of the pieces for my tractors. My 982 and my 782 will have power steering.
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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by stevet »

Sounds like a plan! Sucks when you have to part with some, but unfortunately we've all done it!. Sounds like you are liking the newer 3000 series, that's good to know!

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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by bbaker »

stevet wrote:Sounds like a plan! Sucks when you have to part with some, but unfortunately we've all done it!. Sounds like you are liking the newer 3000 series, that's good to know!
Steve, I have too many. I bought several of them for parts and to sell. I was going to keep the other 782, and maybe the 1812 but realistically I just don't need all those tractors.

As far as liking the 3000 series tractors, indeed I do. I can't believe I hadn't ever discovered them till now. They have their issues, but so do all models of cubs. For right now I am very pleased and they are just as well built as any model cub before them. The locking diff seems to be their Achilles Heal, but otherwise very well built.
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bbaker
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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by bbaker »

I guess I had just dismissed them as "junk" because they are newer, and I didn't figure anything this new could match the quality of my beloved 82 series tractors. I was wrong....

They are 10 times easier to work on!
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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by AJGross »

I don't know how typical it is, but a buddy of mine has a 3205 and was pulling a very heavy roller with it. All the stress caused a seal to blow out of the rearend. So you might not want to stress it too hard.

AJ

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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by bbaker »

AJGross wrote:I don't know how typical it is, but a buddy of mine has a 3205 and was pulling a very heavy roller with it. All the stress caused a seal to blow out of the rearend. So you might not want to stress it too hard.

AJ
I'm gonna work the 3165 like a rented mule. :mrgreen: :shock: :mrgreen:

My 1872 blew the hydro pump seals several years ago plowing. My 782 is due for a hydro seal repair should I not "stress it too hard either"? :) If I plow with it and get the oil temp up it leaks so it's definitely time for some new seals.
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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by Oak »

BB, what is the rear valve going to? That is the one that should go to the rear lift.

I just started using Rotella 15W-40 in my 3k machines. A lot of guys are using it without any problems on MTF.

Wow, that is a good looking 3240 and I would be all over that one on CL if it were closer.

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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by bbaker »

Both my aux valves go to the front ports for the blade. They made a 4th valve option for the 3pt if you had the 4 way blade like I do. it involves cutting a slot in the fender, and I just don't want to do that to this tractor. I really doubt I'll use the 3pt much with the blade on so I could just tee into one of those lines.

IDK I'm still running ideas in my head on how to do it, and I have seen at least one tractor where they used the cup holder plastic thing on the other side as well and had one hydraulic handle on the opposite side. But again that would involve modifying the fender deck and I am just not willing to do that on THIS tractor.
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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by bbaker »

Oak, I got a message today my buddy has the side panel decals done. I'll go get them this weekend and will show you what they looks like next to the original. They won't be a 100% perfect match I am sure, but should be pretty close as he took several pictures and measured very carefully, but I did not leave my side panel with him.
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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by Tom Scott »

Bryan - Before the mule beating begins, here are some thoughts on the tranny and comparing the 3000 series to the 82/72 series.

I am talking about the hydro, not the rear. The 82/72 tractors had a Sundstrand 15U and the 3000 tractors have the BDU-21L.

The BDU-21L was first used in some Cyclops tractors. Specifically it was in my 1861 and when it failed I did some research on them.

The Sundstrand 15 series transmissions (the "U" is just one configuration) relied on a smaller pump displacement (15cc) with much higher operating pressures. The BDU-21L has a larger pump (21cc) but operates at lower pressures.

The 15 series is a heavier duty transmission than the BDU-21L. It isn't that they couldn't have made the 21L as strong; the intent of this new transmission was to provide a lower cost, lighter duty tranny than the 15 series. My sense is that the 15U tranny's lasted much longer than anyone anticipated and the tractor manufacturers saw an opportunity to make more money with a lighter duty product.

Here is the Sundstrand chart comparing output torque to lifespan. They think in terms of a 5 year life expectancy, so multiply the hours by five for the total hours of use. Ignore the pressures, because due to the design difference, you can't compare pressures between tranny's.
Series 70 & 15 output vs life chart.JPG
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Just looking at the "Continuous Operating Limits" where the tranny will spend most of its life:
At 400 hrs x 5 = 2000 hrs total life (forever in my book), the 15 series will handle 56% more torque (195/125 = 1.56)
At 200 hrs x 5 = 1000 hrs total life (worked too hard), the 15 series handles 84% more torque (350/190 = 1.84)

For "Max Operating Limits" (plowing, snow pushing, etc)
At 400 hrs (2000 hrs total), the 15 series handles 35% more torque.
At 200 hrs (1000 hrs total), the 15 series handles 52% more torque.

What this really means, is that used in the same capacity, the 15 series tranny (82/72 series tractors) is going to outlast the BDU-21L (3000 series tractor) by substantially longer.

This doesn't make the 3000 series bad in my book, just surely not as heavy duty as the 82/72 series machines. Might be something to think about when assigning duties to the tractors.

I really liked my 1861 and would not have sold it unless my friend pushed me for it. The BDU-21L was easy to rebuild and only cost me about $300 to replace both the main pump and motor inside the hydro. I also suspect that since mine was one of the first that the later ones were revised and lasted longer. Mine failed at about 600 hours and I put almost 400 hours on after the rebuild with no hint of diminished performance. I suspect the rebuilt one will last much longer with the newer parts.

Now, compare all those numbers to the BDU-10L that is in the new 2500 series that they dare to call a GT!

I by no means meant to rain on any parade here, the 3000 series look like nice machines. Just probably best to treat the mule as a beloved pet and not rented! :beer:
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Tom Scott
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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by Tom Scott »

Link to Danfoss pdf of tranny's: http://powersolutions.danfoss.com/stell ... -10006.pdf

(Danfoss is current owner of former Sundstrand equipment.)
1872, 46", 50C decks, Haban dozer blade, 450 snow blower
2182-1, Kwik-Way Loader, 3-pt & rear pto, 442 tiller
2182-2, 54" deck, 551 snow blower
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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by Oak »

Sounds good on the decals BB. That should be a nice machine when done.

Tom, that is a lot of good information. I think Danfoss owns about 1/2 the companys in the HVAC industry too. I love my 3k machines but I agree with you that they are not near as heavily built as the best ever line of Cubs, the 82 series. I have a cat 0 on my 3205 that I put on it but I don't think I would pull a plow and hammer it like I do my 82's. What I can tell you is they are awesome mowing machines and the shaft drive decks are 10 times better then any other deck ever built. The cyclops GT decks were good but the 3k decks with the rear rollers do a great job and stripe the cut. The foot controlled hydro is also a great improvement and it free's a hand up for an ice cold beverage....with a built in drink holder in the fender pan.

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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by bbaker »

I appreciate the info, but I still stand by what I said earlier. The overall build of this tractor compares in my mind to the 82 series tractors. The Hydro may not be quite as tough, but they seem to be holding up fairly well. I know it's rare but the older hydros have failed too. The frame, front axle, sheet metal etc all compare just as well as the older tractors it's just more modern styling.

The 782 will always be my favorite tractor. I think IH nailed it with that one and pound for pound is probably one of the toughest tractors out there.

Time will tell how the 3165 and the 3240 hold up for me, but I do intend to use them, and I do intend on plowing snow and also plow days with them. If I blow a hydro, you all can say I told you so, but I'm not going to treat them with kid gloves. The 3240 I might simply because it's nearly as cherry as it can be and be 13 years old.


And at this point if the 3165 burnt to the ground I am out 152.50 plus a drive to northern IN to get it!!! :mrgreen: Oh and my time assembling it. (which isn't worth much)
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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by bbaker »

One of the things I have always hated with changing tires is getting the beads broke. I haven't ever had a bead breaker, and I have to honestly say I've been pretty hard on some tires with a spoon and a rubber mallet trying to get them off.

Yesterday I loaded a set of tires in the car to take to the tire shop just to get the beads broken as I didn't want the beads messed up. I went to go to the shop and then I thought wait, and search to see what Harbor Freight had for a bead breaker? Well it turns out they have one, and I read the reviews. I was skeptical until the one review said he just broke down all 6 of his dually tires without any trouble. OK I'll give one a try.


So last night I went home and got a magazine from the house that had a 20% off coupon, and bought the breaker below for 39.99 minus the 20%

I just had to try it last nigh even though it was getting dark, and while I only broke down (2) 10.50 turfs and a front rim from a Cub I was really amazed. I wish now I had bought one 10 years ago. I just always figured they were a joke.
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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by bbaker »

I also bought a set of 3/4" drive impact sockets so I could take off the axle nuts. I had to get an adapter for my 1/2" impact and really need to get a 3/4 Impact but I am not sure if I have enough air to supply it.


Henry Ford once said "if you need a tool and don't buy it you'll end up paying for it twice and still not have the tool" I firmly believe that and have found it to be true in my own life. I borrowed a 1 5/16 socket last week but I needed to get my own.
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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by JMotuzick »

Bb
My fathers first cousin owned a tire shop for 30 years when he passed away I was able to take some things from his shop... One of them was a older version of that bead breaker... I think It got scraped last month when I did so e cleaning! I have a hand operated slide hammer type log spliter I use instead! It works twice as well and takes up 1/10 the space. Posting from my stupid phone so I can't get a link to a true slide hammer head barker but they can be bad and work even better then the harbor freight one you bought!

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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by bbaker »

This one won't take up much room at all. I was surprised when I got to the store as it looked bigger online. Plus it come apart easy if need be.

Scrapped it huh? You really scrapped a good working tool? shame....
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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by JMotuzick »

Bb
That's it I'm not sure I did!
I'll look tonight and see if it's there .... I may have also given it a new home but don't remember where!
This one was much older and did not come apart first storage! I wish it did otherwise it would stil be hideing in my garage!

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Re: CC 3185/3165 and a 3240 project.

Post by Oak »

BB, how's this project doing?

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