My first Super: uh-oh, blown head gasket?

[Binder_Finder]

Hey gang-

picked up my first Super on Saturday. It's a 2084 with 564 advertised hours on it. I basically saved it from the scrap man as it had been sitting outside for over 2 years unused. I paid market rate for the 54GT deck which was stored inside and is in great condition, and there was a pair of wheel weights to cement the deal. The PO more or less threw in the tractor at that point and said 'have fun with it'. I told him I'd be mowing with it on Sunday and he looked at me like I had 3 heads... After freeing everything up (and I mean everything, except for the motor) and rebuilding the carb, I got it running, but it's one-lunging it. Unless its WOT under load, I get nothing off the right side cylinder (when sitting on the tractor). It also hisses on that side during compression, which is what leads me to believe it could be the head gasket. I do have good spark on the right side, and it doesn't do bad when wide open, but I don't think I'm helping it by running it this way. I see that these CH20s are blowing head gaskets all over the place on other forums and help sites, so I thought I would ask here just what's involved to do the job right. These Kohlers are a little more advanced than I'm used to vs the older Cubs, and I have no experience with an OHV engine. I see the head gaskets kits for sale ad figure I might as well do both sides while it's apart. Can it be done in the tractor, or does the motor have to be moved or removed?

I'm gonna post this on the other Cub forums as well to try and get as much input as possible. The goal is to try and decide to fix it or part it. The tractor is complete but pretty rotted in the usual spots from exposure, but the plastic is good! Still, it is a Super!

[Ike]

I have a CH20 in a 782. It came out of a 2082 with only a couple hundred hours on it.
The valve covers had been leaking oil, po did not do anything, grass etc. plugged up the cooling fins and it got too hot, dropping the valve seats.
It was replaced under warranty and I picked it up cheap.
Had the heads done at a local machine shop.
It's been running great for years.

Good luck with it,

Ike

[rweaver]

ok not being picky here but just correcting info a 2082 has a kohler mag 20 hp a 2084 has a kohler command 20 hp in it if nobody changed them one thing if its hissing pull the head and check for carbon stuck in the valve as well

[Tom Scott]

Tom - Even if it needs an engine, that doesn't mean it isn't worth saving. Mr. Ray Weaver below probably has one. But... at this point it still may be as easy as a new head gasket or a leaking valve. Trust me, the ugly duckling will grow on you.

And as per your signature, the price was right!

Although I haven't worked on Commands, it can't be that hard. Go to the Kohler site ( http://www.kohlerengines.com/home.htm ) and get the manual downloaded for free. Let us know how it works out. I love seeing one that was left for dead brought back to life.

[Binder_Finder]

That's what it's all about, Tom! She cleaned up pretty well, and it IS growing on me! The power steering and that big tractor feel is not something i'd normally 'throw away'... Maybe I can start tearing into the engine this weekend.

[Binder_Finder]

**update**

I took the needle valve out of my compression tester and turned it into a compression maker by hooking it up to my air supply with about 30psi. The suspect cylinder was indeed leaking horrendously right next to the exhaust port. I could even see where the gasket had failed and feel the air blowing out. Looks like i'm going to get qualified on Command head jobs in the next couple of weeks. I hope the heads are ok and not warped too bad. I'll put them on the granite countertop in the kitchen and see if they are more than .0003 out... then i'll have to decide if I want to sand away or just take them to the local machine shop. I'll have to see how the valves and seats look as well. Look like the motor definately has to come forward, and maybe out, so I can get the intake off. At least i'll be able to get everything cleaned up nice, and I can go after some of the rust and rot issues too.

Keeping my fingers crossed...

[mgonitzke]

I think I'd just pull the motor...that way you can take off the flywheel shroud and make sure you don't have any oily messes or mouse nests in there to create hot spots. I've had two CH18s, and both seemed to have a leaky flywheel-end crank seal that made a mess of everything, so you might want to see if that's ok, too...

[Tom Scott]

Tom - I'm with Matt; pull it out. I was bummed to find that I had to pull my Magnum out of the 1872 to replace the Magneto, but it keeps you from ignoring the other things you will find (like a bad crank seal). It is also much nicer to have the engine up on a good work surface.

[vince_o]

I personaly wont go back to working and or buying the narrow and wide frames, after working on these 82's. Im down to 3 narrows and one wide.

The commands are easy to build. Ive done a few of them.

[Binder_Finder]

yikes-

trying to get the engine out has been working me over... not nearly as simple as our older Cubs! I've got everything disconnected except for the last allen-head bolt on the driveshaft - stripped! I don't know what setup is under that rubber boot around the front of the dirveshaft, but I can't do anything more until I get that bolt out. I've got the 4 engine mount bolts disconnected, the 2 fronts have to stay in due to the engine bay plate design, and I can't slide the engine forward like this! I even removed the 4 engine plate mounting bolts, but still no go! An engine lift would probably take alot of the grunt work out of this, I hope I can get it out this weekend so I can finally get the heads off. O yeah gotta take the ground wire off at some point too...

[Racenitro]

I agree with Vince. It is hard to go back to the Tried and True cubs after the SUPERS...they tend to spoil you in several ways.

I thought that shaft just slipped in...I have dismantledseveral 1862's and my recollection is that the shaft simply slid out of that mount and the 4 allen bolts held the C/V Constant Velocity joint together and mounted it to the engine.

I am sure somebody will correct me if my memory is getting OLD...LOL

[Jlaws]

Frank I believe your correct , that should have the splined driveshaft and if he has enough room it should just slide off .

[wdeturck]

I agree with Vince. It is hard to go back to the Tried and True cubs after the SUPERS...they tend to spoil you in several ways.

I thought that shaft just slipped in...I have dismantledseveral 1862's and my recollection is that the shaft simply slid out of that mount and the 4 allen bolts held the C/V Constant Velocity joint together and mounted it to the engine.

I am sure somebody will correct me if my memory is getting OLD...LOL

To get that stripped screw out get a tight fitting torq socket or driver and pound it in and put steady pressure on it. Those Allen head set screws may be larger than any I tried but it has worked on the smaller stripped heads. If the shaft slips out you als may be able to grind the head off and get the coupling qff and use a vice grip.

[Racenitro]

Vise-Grip will get the bolt out. That is a rubber boot covering the end of the shaft and from the picture it appears that there is enough room to get a Vise-Grip on the head.

I have left all of my engines bolted to the mounting plate and removed them with it attached. There are 6 bolts that hold the plate to the frame. 2 are under the front axle and you may have to jack up the front so you can tilt the axle from side to side to remove the two bolts. The other 4 are easy to remove.

I seem to remember sliding it forward to disengage the shaft and then raising the rear first and sliding the assembly backwards after moving the shaft to the side(or re,moving it completely). Yep...some type of hoist makes it much easier but I have always manhandled them. Guess that is why I have a bad back..LOL. Just did my 2072, I know engine is different and drive shaft is different, but the mounting plate is the same...

Be careful when you remove the top of the C/V..there are steel balls in it and they like to fall out if it is not well lubricated or dry.

[Binder_Finder]

Finally got motor out today. Frank, thanks for the info on the CV joints on the ends of the driveshaft and the last two engine plate bolts. That is just the kind of info that this site is great for! I put the rest of the allen screws back into the flywheel and left the CV boot alone. I was onto unbolting the engine plate, but you saved me with the ID of the two rearward bolts. I also removed the two bottom bolts/nuts from the cheesy firewall, ans then the whole engine and plate slid forward, and out it came! I was also relieved to find that the Command 20 long block is noticeably lighter than the old cast iron K blocks!

Now, does anyone have that 772-4166 service manual on PDF? Just another thing I should have downloaded from the Registry when we still had it...

VinceO, do I just loosen the nuts on the rockers and remove the pushrods, or can they stay in the block? Are there specs available for when I put it back together as far as the valvelash and such? I hope the head gasket kit from Kohler will have a spec sheet in it...

[mgonitzke]

You should be able to download the engine service manual from Kohler's website.

[Tom Scott]

Tom - I have bought hardcopies of new manuals from Carter & Gruenwald. I think I paid less than $70 shipped to my door several years ago for the entire group: operator's, service, engine, and parts list . Probably on ebay as well for less; same manual for any Cyclops I believe. I don't have a pdf of this one. I checked and MTD only has the owner's manual available online for any of these tractors. At any rate, find one for sale and order it; you will have it in a few days and be glad you got it. I know it is another expense, but the manuals pay for themselves.

The Kohler manual is online. Download, print, put in binder. It will tell you everything about rebuilding the engine properly.

I know you are focused on the engine right now, but before reassembly I would: make sure that CV joint boot is not blown, front and rear. It should fit somewhat snugly aroud the driveshaft, and not have any cracks. Originally a zip tie kept them snug to the shaft. If you remove the whole assembly from the tractor, the manual has a procedure for checking for binding of the CV joints. And, just because I am particular, now is the time to get the stripped allen out and replace it. (I know if I didn't, it would haunt me!)

As for greasing the CV joints, they should get grease that is specified as being suitable for CV joints. I use a Valvoline synthetic that is marked as suitable. (One grease fitting at each end of shaft.)

Keep up the good work!

[Binder_Finder]

Tom-

the joint looked good and was sealed with the original zip-tie. it had good clean grease in it as well. I will probably try to get the stripped one out at some point during the repairs. I'm a little apprehensive about opening the boot up, there was no freeplay in either end of the driveshaft, so I'm hoping it will need little attention , if any. I was looking for the service manual to get some insight about how the PTO comes apart, as I was going to do a front seal while the engine is out. I plan on getting the other engine specs I need off the Kohler site as Matt G suggested.

I'm also going to explore what type of Rustoleum product might work best for treating therampant rust that is present on this machine. I saw some stuff that you can buy ina bottle and just spray on the bare metal that makes apaintable surface.
The paint on these was not that great to begin with if I recall from my 1641, which was always kept indoors.

Gimme a month or so and I'll have this girl presentable, just in time for snow duty...

[Tom Scott]

When you get the troubled bolt out, keep the parts together with your hands, then just keep the CV joint held together with bolts after you remove it. Look on the parts sites (partstree.com, messicks.com, etc.) and you will see it really is simple; boot with attached metal plate, front half of joint, four balls with splined center hub, back half of joint. I would disassemble the one at the engine because it is already in your hand at that point, and you might as well spend ten minutes wiping it out with paper towels and using some of the correct grease to put it back together with. Unfortunately, some greases don't mix well, and you don't know what has been pumped in there. Two different greases that are both quality and meet the same spec can combine to create a hardened mess. It is wise to pick a brand for an application and always stick with it.

I would also put some match marks on the outer halves and hub to put all the same surfaces back together that already know each other. The balls should not have any signs of wear and should be ok to go back in any position.

Since your are probably not pulling the back joint, cut the tie, grease it heavy with the right stuff until it is flushed, then retie it.

Always paper use paper towels too; rags leave lint. That goes for the engine internals as well.

When you reinstall the shaft to the CV joint on final assembly, it can take some fishing around with the driveshaft to get it to mate. If the splined center hub is not dead square to the shaft, it is not going in.

[Racenitro]

Tom...
Glad I could be of assistance.....

You may want to check the C/V joints to see if they have sufficient grease in them. If the end of the shaft has some grease on it, they may be ok..also some of the drive shafts have a grease zerk on them to lube the C/V.

[SWilliams]

I have the Cyclops service manual in PDF. BUT the catch is that it actually doesn't cover the later models!!!
There actually isn't a service manual that does. It is one of my biggest gripes with Cub Cadet.
The 772-4166 covers the 1340, 1535, 1541, 1782, 1860, 1862, 1882, 2082 and 2182.
Tractors built after mid 1991 through the end of the Cyclops run seem to be forgotten.

Even though they are the best looking of the bunch.....

[Tom Scott]

Steve - My friend purchase a 2086 recently and the guy had all the original manuals from when the machine was new. He had the one and only Cyclops service manual that there is (the one you refer to) and inside was the official notice from Cub that said "just follow the instructions for the 2182 when working on the 2086". That works for most things, as you will need the specific engine manufacturer's manual anyway, but your right, they should have revised it. I think there was one revision, but it was minor and before all the later models came out.

[SWilliams]

That works for most of the stuff, except the items that are not in the book

The engine manuals are not a problem. It's the small stuff that's a PIA. Like the different Hydro unit used in the later GTs, that is different than the ones in the earlier tractors. The different hydro linkage which someone on the old list posted the adjustment methods for.

Just wonder what they were thinking when they built tractors for 5-6 years but didn't cut a book for them?

[Tom Scott]

Steve - I am definitely not defending them! I think you are absolutely right; they dropped the ball on this. My first tractor was the 1861 with the "different" hydro. When it started having problems I figured out in a hurry that my hydro was not in the book. I had to get a hydro-gear manual to rebuild it.

[SWilliams]

I just have a pet peeve about manufacturers who do this type of thing. It reminds me of the newer Chiltons/Motors auto repair manuals that cover a 15 year vehicle spread when that vehicle had 3 design changes and 15 different engine combination's. They seem to enjoy putting the phrase "Typical item shown, others similar" in there. It's really fun when they are talking about something like the 4.3 GM EFI system. Over the course of 4 years GM changed the intake,injector design and most of the top end of the engine, Chiltons take on that " This is the common application, others similar" When in reality they are almost as alike as oil and water!!!

Oh well I guess they could have done worse and just made everything into the 1000 series....

[vince_o]

Tom

I havent checked back since my post. I always loosen the rockers and pull the head. BE SURE TO MARK the push rods. Some are heavier than the other that would be exaust. Also if you take the lifters out mark them. If you follow the manual and its the same we had in the shop it will tell you that AFTER you tear it apart and ar putting it bac togeather. Also the one I had loaded on the comp at work showed the rods in backwards. When I did the welder I put it togaether like the book said and the crank ony turned a little then stopped. I took it all apart again and I did it just like the book said. I went up to the show room and got Frank and he looed at it and told me I had the rods in backwards. I told thats what I thought too but THE BOOK SAYS ....... The heck with the book! LOL

The thing I like about the kohlers is when you order a head gasket they sell you the kit. When you order one from Briggs you get a piese of cardboard! I wouldnt know about Honda or Kaw's cause all i ever had to do was change oil and filters on them. they never seeemed to break down.


DID FRANK SAY HE AGREED WITH ME I must be learning LOL