1811 back from the dead

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eplummer
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Re: 1811 back from the dead

Post by eplummer »

Today's score is 1811 2, me 0. Drain plug for transmission is not budging, and engine baffle is proving to be a challenge as I am trying to change out the oil filter bracket and hoses. Is there a trick to getting at the right side baffle screws that are tucked between the engine and frame. I can get a wrench on it but not much room for the wrench to turn. Would a long handled box wrench do the job? In full disclosure I was working in low light and didn't have the time necessary to dedicate to the job.

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Re: 1811 back from the dead

Post by JMotuzick »

I would pull the rear cover To change the rear oil, best to clean out all the crud in there anyhow! I'm not sure about the oil lines your asking about...

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dag1450
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Re: 1811 back from the dead

Post by dag1450 »

Just wondering why u r changing the oil lines? Yes they can b tough in the tractor....With the tin work and all. Just a couple yrs ago I picked up a set of combination wrenches with the gear ratchet thing on the box end. Man they work nice and I find myself using them more and more. Those lower tin bolts r the worst...The one up by the back of the starter.... :x . I mostly use 1/4" drive with different size extensions on it.....And I have a knuckle swivel thing. Good luck
127, 1650, 1572, 1872, 2072 . A mower, blower and blade for each.

eplummer
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Re: 1811 back from the dead

Post by eplummer »

Thanks for the input. I bought a bracket from xtreme motor works that bolts into the rear end using some of the cover plate holes so I was looking for a quicker way to drain the fluid, but that may be the way I have to go.

I am swapping out the oil lines because the lower oil line is leaking, I bought a complete used set up on eBay and am trying to swap it out. After this struggle maybe just swapping the one hose is the way to go.

Dag1450..I bought a standard and a metric of those wrenches at Sears last year on clearance for $10 each. One of the best tool investments I have made. Like you I use them more and more. I have a knuckle for my ratchet also. I will give it a try.

Probably be next week until I can get back to the tractor. Thanks again for the input!

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dag1450
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Re: 1811 back from the dead

Post by dag1450 »

:lol: wow....I guess I didn't wait long enough.....I might have paid $25 for each of those same sets.
OK...Yea if the filter line base is not leaking I would let that alone. If you remove the rubber grommet u should b able to work on the one line.
We're u able to get the pto backing plate into submission?
127, 1650, 1572, 1872, 2072 . A mower, blower and blade for each.

eplummer
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Re: 1811 back from the dead

Post by eplummer »

I think the wrenches had a price tag of $29.99 originally so for that money I couldn't let them stay there. I also picked up a Craftsman camp duck cloth jacket for $10 or $15, originally $145. Way to big for me but I think my son will be able to wear it son.
Sadly I have not had enough time to dedicate to any of the 3 challenges ahead, it could be as much as a week before I can really get after them. Working 20 or 30 minutes at a time is just enough time to get your hands dirty but not make much progress!

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Re: 1811 back from the dead

Post by eplummer »

The good news...got the oil lines/filter/tin swapped, a bit of challenge as the upper house was a little out of shape. Filled it with winter weight oil.. Doesn't appear to be any leaks. Can't believe how much of a difference it made in how the engine cranked. The bad news...the low oil light didn't go off when the tractor was running and a few of the head bolts looked like they had some black oily moisture on them.
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eplummer
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Re: 1811 back from the dead

Post by eplummer »

So....I think the 1811 project has gone way south.......engine running at half speed, low light on, just about to turn off engine and then it suddenly stops, and now won't turn over. Starter engages but just a klunk. The left side plug looks pretty good, the right side not so much. I am thinking worse case the engine has seized...best case after the engine cools off and things contract a bit I can get the engine to move a little by hand. I hope the cub gods send good favor my way.
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dag1450
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Re: 1811 back from the dead

Post by dag1450 »

Oh man! Back up a little....What is this winter oil u speak of? How much did u put in.....And how long did u have it running on this new oil? U installed a new oil filter line.....Did u check it for clean and clear? Did the engine not crank before on old oil. Should b straight 30 weight and rated for air cooled engines. What kind of winter temps do u have that warrant a winter change?
Man that news sucks.....U have come so far :shock:
127, 1650, 1572, 1872, 2072 . A mower, blower and blade for each.

eplummer
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Re: 1811 back from the dead

Post by eplummer »

I am in Eastern Massachusetts, temps are usually some where in the range of 20-40 degrees F and temps below zero are not out of the question. I put in Case/Ih low ash 10w-30. Same oil we would use in the 1650 during the winter when I lived in Maine. It did crank on the old heavier oil but really dragged down. I did overfill it initially but drained some out so it was even with the top of the full mark on the dipstick before starting it. It was running for a few minutes not sure exactly. I thought I understood the manual to state fill crankcase, run engine then recheck oil and fill as necessary. I did take off the filter and looked inside, I expected it to be empty but it did have oil in it.
I might try and pop off the tin and hoses again and see if I can get the head off to take a look....maybe a beer instead.

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Tom Scott
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Re: 1811 back from the dead

Post by Tom Scott »

Eric - Unfortunately, this sounds terminal. Even if the engine will turn again, that cylinder is likely shot. Engines that seize don't heal on their own.

You've done some good learning over the past several years, sorry to see it end up here. I would suggest looking for another donor Magnum or another tractor to start in on. This is tough news to give, but I really think it is where you are at.

As for why, it is tough to say, but it sounds like that cylinder was already on its way out. The one pic you show looks like it had a mouse nest in the cylinder fins, a common problem for tractors stored where the mice have access. The nesting material packs in like you see in the fins and the cylinder doesn't cool properly. The overheating weakens the rings and they loose tension. It probably does not make sense to do a partial rebuild with the likely condition and hours of the entire engine. A full overhaul or replacement engine or tractor is really the only reasonable path.

Although the pto is likely now a non-issue, it is worth noting the problem here. If you look at your pic of the pto, you have installed the one mounting flange of the pto over top of the nut. The nut should have been removed and the pto flange placed under it, so all of the pto mounting flanges are in the same plane, flush against the block.

Let us know what you end up doing. You deserve the beer. And some better luck! Hang in there!
:beer:
1872, 46", 50C decks, Haban dozer blade, 450 snow blower
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eplummer
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Re: 1811 back from the dead

Post by eplummer »

Hey Tom,
Yeah, kind of a bummer of a day as far as Cubbin goes, but it was hauled out of the woods in Maine where it was exposed to the weather for probably years. So I was pleased that I could get it running at all! Your right that it has been a learning process. Not sure what I will do, maybe try the marvel mystery oil in the cylinders trick to see if that can get it loose with some time and patients. Will report back in a week or so.
Thanks for the input
Eric

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Tom Scott
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Re: 1811 back from the dead

Post by Tom Scott »

Eric - Hopefully you have corrected the pto. It is possible that misalignment is causing some type of binding. Like I said, you have that one nut trapped under the pto flange. Compare to dag's pics, you can see both nuts are on the outside of the flange.

Maybe the oil light is something easy like you knocked the wire to the oil sensor loose.

Hopefully you blew out the new oil lines like dag mentioned, some of these parts guys have stuff sitting around awhile, could be blocked with dirt, mud dauber, etc. Also, double check oil level.

Good luck. I hope I'm wrong and it is salvageable.
1872, 46", 50C decks, Haban dozer blade, 450 snow blower
2182-1, Kwik-Way Loader, 3-pt & rear pto, 442 tiller
2182-2, 54" deck, 551 snow blower
Past tractors:  1541, 2135
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dag1450
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Re: 1811 back from the dead

Post by dag1450 »

OK, disregard most of Tom's first post...He must not have been thinking clearly....He doesn't even give up that easy!
...So u have to take the pto off anyway.....Just leave it off till we get this back on its feet. If not done before...Check that oil hose for blockage. Then I would spray some lube down in the cylinders though the spark plugs... Idk...Just a couple good sprays. Then try to crank it over WITHOUT the plugs installed. See what happens and report back. If it cranks freely new plugs will b a must! If not I have another idea.
Yes your oil change was fine....I was just wondering. Keep up the good work and don't give in. Winter work is very discouraging.....But hang in there. Spring will b here before we know it :beer:
127, 1650, 1572, 1872, 2072 . A mower, blower and blade for each.

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Re: 1811 back from the dead

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Since the 1811 has returned to the dead I will give it a week of trying to free up the cylinder then get serious about a replacement engine. But here is an update on today's events. Pulled the tin again, took off the hoses and there was not any oil to speak of in them. Blew through them and no resistance at all so I assume they are clear. Figuring I had nothing to lose at this point I popped off the right side head as that looks to be the most suspect. I can hear a ligh knocking when I twist the shaft back and forth. The bolts looked nasty, especially on the bottom. They all came out way easier than I thought they would. Almost like they were not torqued down to begin with. As you can see things are pretty nasty. Sprayed the piston head with some penetrating lubricant so will see what happens in the morning. As usual any input is appreciated.
Eric
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Re: 1811 back from the dead

Post by JMotuzick »

I guess the question no one is asking, where is the oil? If you just did a oil change where did the new oil go? Leaks? Burned?

To answer your questions from the email, I'm not sure what changes make a 18 a 20, my guess is both bore and carb, as carb is the only difference between a 18 and 15. That's why the NH 1541 would make you a good doner!

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Re: 1811 back from the dead

Post by dag1450 »

Difference between 18 and 20 is the carb and stroke. About 1/4" per cylinder. I'm pretty sure the blocks r the same so the extra length is in the cylinders and makes the 20 about 1/2" wider from head to head. Not sure what the original question was....But I thought I would share.... :lol:
127, 1650, 1572, 1872, 2072 . A mower, blower and blade for each.

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Re: 1811 back from the dead

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Oh..I almost forget. The crankshaft pto end is different....And pto. Not sure about flywheel.
127, 1650, 1572, 1872, 2072 . A mower, blower and blade for each.

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Re: 1811 back from the dead

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Where the oil went is the question , or if it didn't go any where, why didn't it lubricate the cylinder?? I think this engine has an oil pump from what I remember from the diagrams in the manual. If that is the case do they fail? And is there a way to test them for proper functioning or blockage?
Maybe pop the other side today and see what that looks like.

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dag1450
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Re: 1811 back from the dead

Post by dag1450 »

Eric.....Did u try to turn the engine over without the spark plugs installed? Just wondering what was the result? How r u twisting the engine back and forth to hear the knocking? R u thinking a connecting rod is broke? I thought the engine seized up. On that cylinder u removed the head.... Is that piston moving when u "twist" the crank?
127, 1650, 1572, 1872, 2072 . A mower, blower and blade for each.

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Re: 1811 back from the dead

Post by eplummer »

I did try turning the engine over w/0 the plugs and result was the same. Starter engaged but flywheel didn't move. There is a little play if I try twisting the drive shaft back and forth near the fan. Damn little. I have tried pushing down on the flywheel with steady pressure. Nothing.
Here is an image of what I found when I took the breather off. The outside was covered in an oily film and some crud. Not sure what it is supposed to look like but I bet the crap on the spring is not good :( suggestions for cleaning that crud off are welcome!
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eplummer
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Re: 1811 back from the dead

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Took off the other head and also alot of carbon, but springs are clear. Still no movement in the pistons but have been spraying Seafoam deep creep on them. I am going to give it through the weekend to see if anything changes. Probably look for a replacement engine. But, If curiosity gets the better of me what is the best angle of attack to take the engine apart? From the pto shaft end? Although I have been cleaning as I go, there is still a bunch of oil junk on the frame from the oil leaks. If I pull the engine is it best to unbolt the engine or the plate that it rests on?

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dag1450
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Re: 1811 back from the dead

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OK.. this is bothering me. If u can do two more small things that will help diagnose the engine before going any further. First...I would disconnect the driveshaft somehow. Even if u leave it installed (maybe just for now). Then use the key switch to get the engine to turn over just like one time but not be bolted to the coupling. Second..If first don't spin it..... Remove starter and confirm the starter operates as it should. U can do this on a bench test or hold over the battery somehow. Once those two things r done try spinning the engine over by hand
127, 1650, 1572, 1872, 2072 . A mower, blower and blade for each.

eplummer
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Re: 1811 back from the dead

Post by eplummer »

Thanks Dag1450, I will try it and let you know. I know the starter spins out to engage but does not retract. If my understanding is correct the starter should spin to engage the flywheel but retract when the engine starts and the flywheel spins faster than the starter????? Thanks again

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Re: 1811 back from the dead

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The 1811 is back in the morgue. I decided to move forward with a 1650 I took apart a few years ago. It will give me more versatility if I can get it to move under its own power. I will put the 1811 back together and wait for warmer weather to proceed. Thanks everyone that got me this far. Will check back with updates.
Eric

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Re: 1811 back from the dead

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Update on the 1811 saga...still dead. The original engine is still seized but I haven't done any exploratory wrenching to get to the problem. I did receive a replacement m18 today. It needs a serious cleaning, and the block appears to have a lot of oxidation on it. Heads, manifold, oil lines/filter are off. They all came in a box with a bunch of nuts and bolts....but it turns by hand! I guess I will give it a good pressure wash and see how it cleans up. Will try to post some before and after pictures.

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Re: 1811 back from the dead

Post by dag1450 »

U received a magnum 18....? Oh do tell! How does one receive a magnum 18? Most of the time we hear..."I bought"..."I went to get"....." I took it out of"....."I found at Ray's" :lol:
127, 1650, 1572, 1872, 2072 . A mower, blower and blade for each.

eplummer
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Re: 1811 back from the dead

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Technically I went to pick it up If the Ray you speak of is Ray Weaver..he sent it to me. I traded him some $ for it! I am into it for less than $250. He used Fastenal to ship it to me. There is a store about a 1/2 mile from me so it was not much of a pick up run. I hope to use what I know to be good, from the seized engine to get the "new" one back in service. It is a little out of my comfort range but trying to get moving forward again.
First it needs a spa day!

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Tom Scott
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Re: 1811 back from the dead

Post by Tom Scott »

Eric - Download this and print it, put in a binder, you won't regret it: http://resources.kohler.com/power/kohle ... 2204_b.pdf

Even if you have rebuilt engines before, you need the service manual to get things right. If you haven't, then the manual is even more valuable as they have very good step-by-step procedures.
1872, 46", 50C decks, Haban dozer blade, 450 snow blower
2182-1, Kwik-Way Loader, 3-pt & rear pto, 442 tiller
2182-2, 54" deck, 551 snow blower
Past tractors:  1541, 2135
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JMotuzick
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Re: 1811 back from the dead

Post by JMotuzick »

Eric
Just put the 1811 in the truck along with the engine. Bring it all to the show in Colchester's ct tomorrow. When you leave it will run and now! After that just keep visiting us every show for the next few years!

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