451 on a 1440

[TeeQ43]

I recently acquired a 451 blower for my 1440, pieced and fabbed up everything that was missing linkage wise, new belt, and it turned on perfectly, no isses......until I went to use it in snow. Snow only shot out 5-10 feet max. It has the 6" PTO, and made sure it had the 451 part number badge, and gear ratio is correct to not confuse 450 to 451. I tried different speeds, accumulated more snow in auger, still no change. The belt doesn't seem to be slipping, so I suppose I'm not too sure what else could be the cause. Should i look into checking RPM? It is at WOT as well. Any other suggestions?

[Tom Scott]

Tom, Welcome to the forum!

With the 6" pto, you aren't in danger of too slow. If you accidentally got a 450, it would overspeed and throw even further than designed, but at the possible expense of using too much horsepower and lugging the engine.

If the snow is real wet, ten feet might be all your going to get, but it does sound low. These blowers are very sensitive to rpm, they need all they are supposed to get, so only use at full throttle operation. Have you checked your high speed no-load rpm? There have been more than a few tractors set low from the factory. Get a tachometer and make sure you are getting all 3600 rpm.

If you had a bad belt, or too long, or you didn't engage the spring to provide belt tension, you could have a slipping belt. Did you turn the spring engagement lever so that the spring is putting full tensioning on the belt? Link to manual if this doesn't make sense: downloads.php?view=detail&df_id=282

Less likely, but possible, is a sheared key for the pulley to the input shaft, or a sheared spirol pin where the fan connects to the shaft.

Let us know what you find!

[TeeQ43]

Thanks for the reply. The snow was fairly fluffy here in southern wisconsin yesterday, went out again for round 2 after I posted this and same results that time around. Ten feet max and a lot would build up on the top of the housing exiting the chute. I'll check the RPM's this evening after work and see if I can't narrow it down to that.

Also as far as the belt goes, I have the extension plates for it being a "super", what is the appropriate belt length for the 451 and 6in pto? Is it 84"? If so, my belt is a little longer, the spring is taught and the tensioner is flipped over to the proper position, but the pulley is hanging lower than the other idler puller on the opposite side.

[TeeQ43]

Reas on I ask about belt size is that the parts list says 84 and the diagram in the first couple pages says 91.

[TeeQ43]

Also, completely forgot, my amp light came on every time I engaged the PTO. Is that normal, or do I have an underlying issue? Voltage regulator? Or just a Vanguard issue in general?

[Tom Scott]

On a Super with the extensions, I still found 91" to be on the long side because I made special shoes to keep the blower up higher off a stone driveway. For my unique situation I went with an 89" belt to keep the idler pulleys even on average.

But...The 1440 should not be using the Super extensions with the 451. I double checked the 1994 attachment guide here: downloads.php?view=detail&df_id=214 Even in this end of Cyclops run guide, they only mention the extensions for use on a Super.

You will hear that the newer Cyclops GT gained a taller front axle, which did make it close enough in height that the newer design 551 fit both the GT and SGT without any adapters. But that doesn't mean you should use the 451 with extensions on the later Cyclops GT. Unless someone finds something contrary in a manual, I don't think I'm wrong on this one. With the extensions on the blower will not sit down squarely as it should.

So... How this relates to your current situation... It could be that the belt is too long and the spring just isn't putting enough pressure on it and is slipping. Also, don't try to use generic industry belts. The "lawn & garden" belts are often stronger than some light industrial belts of the same cross section.

This is getting long, so I'll float to a new post to continue...

[Tom Scott]

What I would do:

1) Be absolutely sure you have the 6" diameter pto pulley. Don't rely on model numbers, reach in and measure it if you haven't. If you have the 4.6", you will get the results you are describing. This measurement is the outside diameter of the pulley.

2) Remove the lift extensions. Save them for that future Super you want!

3) With the belt removed (engine off), grab and try to turn the input pulley of the blower and hold the fan still to check for a sheared key on the pulley or pin on the blower fan. Turn the input pulley by hand looking and listening for anything that doesn't sound or look right.

4) Install the correct 84" belt for a standard GT with the extensions removed. Use only the correct Cub belt or a for real lawn and garden belt. I have had very good service from Gates PoweRated. Easy to buy online (Amazon I think for me last time) or NAPA sells same belt in their own packaging.

A pic is always good. Here is one of my extra belts in stock. For an 84" you would want a 6984.

Gates 6989 belt.JPG (469.03 KiB) Viewed 7663 times

[Tom Scott]

"AMPS" warning light is really a voltage warning light. From my experience with these Cyclops machines, the factory voltage sensors get wonky, and warn early.

To be sure, put someone else in the tractor seat, engage blower and lights and check voltage at full throttle, right at the battery terminals. You should still have about 14 volts if all is well. If under 13.5 volts, them we have a problem. If too low the pto could be slipping.

I have some more thoughts I'll hit later, got to go get something done. I'll check back in later.

[TeeQ43]

Apologies as I had to work late last night and didn't make it in the garage for pictures, but I will do so tonight.

I took took the front grille off and I measured after my first snow pass and it is for sure a 6 inch pulley. And I installed the extension plates to keep the blower from tipping forward and way off the skids. For some reason I was under the assumption the cyclops 1440 1641 1863/4 and up were considered supers. I stand corrected. A new tachometer is on the way as well. My old one is all messed up and Inaccurate

[Tom Scott]

Like I mentioned, the later Cyclops GT have a taller front axle than the early ones. The increase in pto size, and I believe the front axle change, occurred early in the Cyclops run at Serial number 821,059, so all 1440's should have the tall front axle.

You are not hurting anything keeping the SGT extensions in place if it sits on the skids better. I would consider getting slightly the shorter belt so you are less likely to have slippage, and make sure it is a true lawn & garden belt. This will also bring the low idler up higher and have it less likely to get drub in the snow as much. The Gates PoweRated is my recommendation. Like I said, 89" with the extension plates might be a better choice for you as well since your axle still isn't as tall as a Super.

Let us know how you do. In the absence of something broken or low engine rpm, belt slippage seems the most likely.

[SWilliams]

The 1440 should handle the 451 but you are right at the edge power wise. RPMs play a BIG roll in how far they throw. My 451 on the 2263 will throw "proper" snow well over 25 feet. BUT if it's wet (think perfect snowman snow) the throwing drops fast. Out on the edge of the road where it's WET and slushy it may barely clear the side of the blower! Run it out into snow that just damp and light and the neighbors hate me, I've thrown snow clear across my front yard in good snow.

I think the folks have got you on the right track. The warning light is a clue that you're turning the engine slow as well. Mine will come on if I throttle back even slightly when in the snow. Also check the clearance around the impeller, my housing had taken a beating over the years and was full of dents and actually bulged out around the impeller. Over the summer I cut it all apart and formed a new impeller housing and it made a HUGE difference. Instead of having over an inch of clearance I have about 1/4" now.
Another thing that makes a difference is how much you feed it. Mine runs best when you can just hear the engine start to lug a bit and the governor opens up.

[Tom Scott]

Excellent point by Steve on the 14 hp limitation, which will drastically affect rpm. When I ran the 450 on the 1872, even 18 hp was just not enough for real high snow. That was part of my justification for the second 2182, the higher hp and liquid cooled engine for the sustained beating. Checking the no-load speed on the engine is a must. You want every bit of the target 3600 without going over! Don't want to be throwing any rods...

A common method of tightening up the blower housing is using conveyor belt material bolted to the backside of the fan blades which just drags on the housing. I very much like this idea and want to try it someday. YouTube has more than a few examples. As Steve brought up, the clearance between the housing and fan creates slip, which wastes much of your input energy.

[TeeQ43]

I appreciate the feedback fellas, I'll be taking some pictures and posting up this evening after work and I hopefully have a replacement tach on my front doorstep. The more I dive into Cubs, the more I want a 2082 2084 2182 etc. I haven't memorized the model numbers quite yet other than the 1440, 1641, 1872, as there are many of them.

[SWilliams]

Tom, I added chunks of stall mats to mine last year and it makes a noticeable improvement.

[TeeQ43]

Where did you add them? Onto the impeller?

[dag1450]

I have not done this upgrade....but have seen some videos of how amazing people say it is. Found this on the web. The backing plate looks good....fender washers could also work and might b easier.

powervane10408.jpg (31.74 KiB) Viewed 7626 times

[SWilliams]

That's almost exactly how I did mine. The only change was that I made my "paddles" extend in farther so there was more surface to grab. The biggest thing was making sure it was balanced. At the speed that thing turns it doesn't take much to cause an issue.

[TeeQ43]

Sorry for the disappearing act, but I was able to cure the poor Snow throwing. I added rubber paddles to the impeller blades due to a huge gap between the impeller and housing, anot 84 inch belt, and some lube in the chute. RPM'S are close to 3600. Works great now! Oh and minus the choke cable freezing and having to manually choke and unchoke the damn thing.