Boom goes the belt !!!

This is where we can discuss all the stuff made after IH's sale to MTD.
Post Reply
User avatar
SWilliams
Posts: 805
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:14 pm
First and Last Name: Steve Williams
Location: Fort Plain NY (Upstate NY near Cooperstown)

Boom goes the belt !!!

Post by SWilliams »

So over the weekend I decided to try the 54" deck (324) off one of the supers on my GT with the 22 horse in it. Worked pretty good on the regular grass where it was only about 2" long and dry. Doesn't lift the grass very well and doesn't throw it either but I think that's because of the poor blade design on it. They are in great shape but the wings are very small. Actually been looking to find a replacement with better lift or maybe some of the ones with the mulching tabs to see if they work better. Anyway, to swap that deck in place of the 48" (317) I normally run is simple, you just swap the deck. The books show the same drive belt used between them when run on the GT as well as the hanger where you just move the lift to the front holes instead of the rear. Did that and started cutting. Did OK on the main lawn. However when I got into tall grass that deck fell flat on it's face. The 48 would cut grass up to the headlights on a single pass, the 54 took 3 passes and still plugged with ease. Anyway, I had been mowing for about 45 minutes when I felt the tractor start shaking, figured I had got something stuck to a blade, reached up to shut the PTO off and BANG, the belt came apart in about 3 pieces. I've had them crack, wear and peel apart but this one had 2 chunks about 6" long missing with just the backing strip still there! Being an OE kevlar belt only a year old I didn't expect that. I just ordered a few replacement kevlar belts for it, as well as another $$ OE one. Figure I'll try one of the cheaper ones first to see what I can see.
What I found so far - Nothing, deck belt in good shape, all bearings free and lubed, idler has normal play in it and the bearing is OK. It has the correct drive pulley for the serial number as well. The only item I can think of is the 54" deck needs more power to run it and the stock belt can't take the strain in tall grass.

Oh one thing I am tossing around, I have a spare center pulley for a 317, which is about 3/4 inch smaller than the one on the 324, however where the belt actually runs is only about 1/2" different. I'm thinking of swapping it to the 324 to try to get the anemic blades to throw the grass better with the slightly faster blade speed.

Anyone have any thoughts on either item.
Owner of an 1863, 2263 (1863 W 22hp engine!) 2084 and a 2 - 2284s.


"In God we trust, All others pay CASH..."

cwcub
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 7:24 pm
First and Last Name: Corey Wilder
Location: Oroville, Washington

Re: Boom goes the belt !!!

Post by cwcub »

Have you checked the bearings on the mule drive?
Proper belt tension?
I put a 54” on my 1864 and it mows great. You Should be plenty of power. I had a belt eater on one of my other tractors turned out one of the deck pulleys was corroded from sitting to long dirty. After cleaning off rust there were holes in the pulley.
cwcub 1450 1650 1872 782

User avatar
SWilliams
Posts: 805
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:14 pm
First and Last Name: Steve Williams
Location: Fort Plain NY (Upstate NY near Cooperstown)

Re: Boom goes the belt !!!

Post by SWilliams »

Went over everything. Cannot find anything wrong, I pulled the spindles apart just to be sure that there wasn't something in a bearing and they looked good, Mule has new idlers from last year and are still wearing some paint in the grooves. At the moment I'm still leaning toward it being excessive torque due to the high grass. Should know by tomorrow if it stops raining long enough as there is still a bunch of that to cut.
Owner of an 1863, 2263 (1863 W 22hp engine!) 2084 and a 2 - 2284s.


"In God we trust, All others pay CASH..."

User avatar
SWilliams
Posts: 805
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:14 pm
First and Last Name: Steve Williams
Location: Fort Plain NY (Upstate NY near Cooperstown)

Re: Boom goes the belt !!!

Post by SWilliams »

Think I found it, shock loading. The deck doesn't clear out the tall grass that well and once it loads up the blades start trying to cut it all 203 times and it was causing the belts to fall into a harmonic pattern. That coupled with the extra loading stripped the belt. I went over the failed belt and discovered that it had fracture lines at regular intervals not like random cracking but like you measured out a set distance and snapped the cords in the belt. Shock loading is about the only thing I can think of that would do that.
Owner of an 1863, 2263 (1863 W 22hp engine!) 2084 and a 2 - 2284s.


"In God we trust, All others pay CASH..."

User avatar
Tom Scott
Chief Moderator
Posts: 1762
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:11 pm
First and Last Name: Tom Scott
Location: Bentley Springs, Maryland

Re: Boom goes the belt !!!

Post by Tom Scott »

Steve - That's a reasonable theory, but you may never really know. I'm curious, did you touch the belt and pulleys immediately after it failed? I'm wondering if it had slip and got very hot, but that wouldn't explain immediate cracks. Your harmonic loading theory is as good as anything I can think of.

I am also running the 54" and it is the best cutting deck I've ever had, but I was surprised it doesn't clear tall grass as well as the 50" I had prior. I thought the 50" was a wonderful deck as well, but prone to warpage, just not as heavily built. The 50" doesn't have the "toe-kick" plate at the base of the outlet which I think help prevents the grass from building up. But... the lack of a toe-kick plate on the 50 contributes to its lack of strength.

The 54 does have the toe-kick and even with the very wide opening it does bridge over for me if I'm in very lush, excessively tall (for a lawn, 6") grass. I only have the lush grass for a month in spring, so I mow the heavy areas twice, scrape the deck clean when done and live with it.

I will mention, that at least with the 21 hp Kubota, the 54" is a beast at fall leaf mulching! I use the factory mulch plug with the same factory blades and dive into 8" of leaves across the entire yard. Although the Kubota gets into the governor pretty good, it's not as bad as with a heavily loaded 450/451 blower, it has plenty enough power. After the first pass, it doesn't look like you've done much. Two or three passes later, it's amazing, suddenly the leaves are just gone.

Maybe also check your engine rpm with a tach, make sure you really are up near 3600 rpm. If you are a few hundred rpm low perhaps increasing it will change any harmonic situation as well as a slight boost in power.

:beer:
1872, 46", 50C decks, Haban dozer blade, 450 snow blower
2182-1, Kwik-Way Loader, 3-pt & rear pto, 442 tiller
2182-2, 54" deck, 551 snow blower
Past tractors:  1541, 2135
<><

User avatar
SWilliams
Posts: 805
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:14 pm
First and Last Name: Steve Williams
Location: Fort Plain NY (Upstate NY near Cooperstown)

Re: Boom goes the belt !!!

Post by SWilliams »

Howdy Tom, Yeah I had to dig out the belt before I moved much and it wasn't any warmer than normal. It was a weird failure as even the exterior weave was in good shape, only one small wear spot along the edge where it rubs on the deck if the lift is fully up. If it wasn't for the area that was torn out of it you would think it was a good belt. I found the cracking after I peeled the outer cover off. Put an OE back on it and tossed a couple blues on the wall just in case, so now that I have spares the OE belt will last forever... LOL

I'm waiting to see what the Gator blades do for clearing the grass before I condemn the deck outright. I'm making a baffle like they installed on the 48" to eliminate the dead spot in the left corner. Not sure why that wasn't a factory upgrade like it was on the 317 deck, from what I can tell the 54 is nothing but a stretched 48" deck and it has the same issue. In shorter dry grass both of them leave a great cut, but anything taller or even a hint of damp and it doesn't blow it out, I removed the finger guard off the 48 because it would also catch the tall wet grass and leave clumps. That made a big difference with clumping and the deck is stout enough it would take some serious force to bend it.

RPM isn't an issue, it's turning a bit over 3600 at the moment. I stuck a center drive pulley off the 317 on it, That deck really hums along now! Sounds like a commercial zero turn. That did help it some but the small lift wings on the stock blades still don't seem to move much air. I looked at the Oregon replacements and those look like they have a larger lift. OH well I'll get it figured out somehow.
Owner of an 1863, 2263 (1863 W 22hp engine!) 2084 and a 2 - 2284s.


"In God we trust, All others pay CASH..."

User avatar
SWilliams
Posts: 805
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:14 pm
First and Last Name: Steve Williams
Location: Fort Plain NY (Upstate NY near Cooperstown)

Re: Boom goes the belt !!!

Post by SWilliams »

Update on the deck. Installed the 317 drive pulley on it, put the Gator G5 blades on it and -- It is the best cutting deck I have ever run ! Moves grass out like it's blowing snow, easily throwing the clippings a good 4 feet even in heavy wet weeds.

Did discover two cons with this set up, you need a good engine to pull those blades, they move a lot of air and they are heavier steel so they move harder. The other is that even though the blades have the same offset as the Cub blades, they have more lift so you need to set the mower up about one notch higher to get the same cut height. Other than those I really like the way this thing cuts, It is also letting me run the tractor faster. Normally I can cut the grass here in about an hour, with this set up I can do the entire thing in 45 minutes.
Owner of an 1863, 2263 (1863 W 22hp engine!) 2084 and a 2 - 2284s.


"In God we trust, All others pay CASH..."

User avatar
Tom Scott
Chief Moderator
Posts: 1762
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:11 pm
First and Last Name: Tom Scott
Location: Bentley Springs, Maryland

Re: Boom goes the belt !!!

Post by Tom Scott »

Steve - I think I'm going to end up following your lead here with the blades and "speed up pulley", but I'm curious... Did you try just making one change first? Did you swap pulleys but keep the stock blades or vice versa, upgrade to just the Gator blades, but with the original pulley? I'm just curious if one alone was the bigger difference maker.
1872, 46", 50C decks, Haban dozer blade, 450 snow blower
2182-1, Kwik-Way Loader, 3-pt & rear pto, 442 tiller
2182-2, 54" deck, 551 snow blower
Past tractors:  1541, 2135
<><

User avatar
SWilliams
Posts: 805
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:14 pm
First and Last Name: Steve Williams
Location: Fort Plain NY (Upstate NY near Cooperstown)

Re: Boom goes the belt !!!

Post by SWilliams »

I added the pulley first and didn't see much of a change in terms of clearing the grass with the stock blades, swapping to the gators though made it a different machine entirely. It cuts like a demon now. The new set up lets me run the tractor faster as well. In nice dry grass the stuff flies about 5-6 feet out of the chute and gets chopped up nicely, in wet/ very damp grass it still throws a lot but can get clumpy if it was long grass. I think that is due to the finger/toe guard on the end of the deck as I had the same issue with the 48 inch deck until I removed it.

The combo works real well. I think the blades alone would make a big difference but don't plan on swapping the pulley back to test. Even though it's very easy to do.
Belt wise, both work with the same belt but you may need to tighten it some.
One other update I'm doing is adding the corner baffle they put in the 48" decks, it helps the airflow and will keep the deck from blowing as much grass out under the left side of the deck. I know it works on the 317 deck so it should do the same on the 324.
Owner of an 1863, 2263 (1863 W 22hp engine!) 2084 and a 2 - 2284s.


"In God we trust, All others pay CASH..."

User avatar
Tom Scott
Chief Moderator
Posts: 1762
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:11 pm
First and Last Name: Tom Scott
Location: Bentley Springs, Maryland

Re: Boom goes the belt !!!

Post by Tom Scott »

Steve - Very helpful information. I've used Gator blades on the 2135 LT (38", 2-blade) at my parents, and I found them to be slightly better but not a marked improvement over the factory "3 in 1" blade. I think they did mulch better, but didn't bag as well. The result was as expected, just no extraordinary difference for that setup. I only bag some of their leaves from the front yard and dump in the back yard to much them in. This is a bit of a sidebar, but that 38" 2-blade deck is terrible in my book, but maybe some of the issue is that I'm mowing more weeds than grass there! :lol:

Back to the 54".... PLEASE provide info on the baffle project, with pics! I mulch all my leaves in at my place with the factory blades and mulch plug and it does very well. I think blades with more lift would improve it further, so when I wear out these blades I'll try the Gator blades. The baffle you're proposing might also help.

When I get time, I want to compare the blade tip speed between the factory 54 pulley and the "speed-up pulley". Can you get me the outside diameter of the replacement pulley and how deep the top of the belt is from the edge? From this I can calculate the foot per minute of the blade tips for comparison. Just curious if the speed-up pulley takes it beyond what I believe the ANSI standard is of 19,000 fpm.
Thanks! :beer:
1872, 46", 50C decks, Haban dozer blade, 450 snow blower
2182-1, Kwik-Way Loader, 3-pt & rear pto, 442 tiller
2182-2, 54" deck, 551 snow blower
Past tractors:  1541, 2135
<><

User avatar
SWilliams
Posts: 805
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:14 pm
First and Last Name: Steve Williams
Location: Fort Plain NY (Upstate NY near Cooperstown)

Re: Boom goes the belt !!!

Post by SWilliams »

The 756-3047 OE pulley for the deck is 5 1/8 inch at the outer lip with the new belt riding at about 1/4 inch inside the lip so at probably 4.75 or so true diameter. The 317s pulley 756-3053 is just shy of 5" at the lip and the belt rides at about 3/16" down on it.
The lower pulley is 4.75 or so on both.
The blades are just at 2" different in length with the gators right at 18.5 on the 54" deck.

The baffle is part 703-2607 on the 48" deck but the mounting is a bit wrong. I made a copy of it but moved the mounting back to match the deck wheel bracket holes on the 54" deck, I also contoured it a bit better so it closes off the edges against the deck better including the flanged area that mounts to the deck. That should keep any grass from getting behind it like it tends to on the 317 deck.
703-2607-0716.JPG
703-2607-0716.JPG (21.33 KiB) Viewed 4354 times
I can say it leaves a better cut on the grass, the old blades when sharp would still leave a ragged torn edge, this set up looks closer to the cut from a reel mower.
Owner of an 1863, 2263 (1863 W 22hp engine!) 2084 and a 2 - 2284s.


"In God we trust, All others pay CASH..."

User avatar
Tom Scott
Chief Moderator
Posts: 1762
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:11 pm
First and Last Name: Tom Scott
Location: Bentley Springs, Maryland

Re: Boom goes the belt !!!

Post by Tom Scott »

Steve - Thanks for the detailed info, very much appreciated. You are much more prompt than I'll be, it'll be likely months before I can revisit this, but now the info is here when I want to play with it. Also, excellent sheet-metal work by you on making that baffle, that's not the easiest shape to make, a curve with a 90* foot!
:beer:
1872, 46", 50C decks, Haban dozer blade, 450 snow blower
2182-1, Kwik-Way Loader, 3-pt & rear pto, 442 tiller
2182-2, 54" deck, 551 snow blower
Past tractors:  1541, 2135
<><

Post Reply