Front axle pin
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Front axle pin
Dag, regarding out PM conversation concerning the front axle pin-
Today I got down and in the dirt with some calipers. It was pretty tricky to measure with stuff in the way. The size that I got across the axle support collars was 4.580.
If you still have your engine out can you verify this size for me
Anyway, I sketched something up and cranked out a prototype this evening. I made the pin +.005 to compensate for wear. The head of the pin will clear the oil pan by about 3/16 of an inch. Notice the 15/16" wrench flats on the head of the pin. I have yet to harden and temper it but that will be no big deal.
Today I got down and in the dirt with some calipers. It was pretty tricky to measure with stuff in the way. The size that I got across the axle support collars was 4.580.
If you still have your engine out can you verify this size for me
Anyway, I sketched something up and cranked out a prototype this evening. I made the pin +.005 to compensate for wear. The head of the pin will clear the oil pan by about 3/16 of an inch. Notice the 15/16" wrench flats on the head of the pin. I have yet to harden and temper it but that will be no big deal.
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Re: Front axle pin
Nice! "Just cranked out a prototype" lol.
I just measured mine at 4.375. pic included for verification.
Now....mine still has the bolt in and is being lightly squeezed snug to the axle.
If I had to guess....my 1650 has lighter than normal wear on it. It was in nice original condition when I got it.
I just measured mine at 4.375. pic included for verification.
Now....mine still has the bolt in and is being lightly squeezed snug to the axle.
If I had to guess....my 1650 has lighter than normal wear on it. It was in nice original condition when I got it.
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Re: Front axle pin
Thanks for the reply Day your pics reveal a lot. Your calipers are reading 4.275, notice the line alongside the 3 is not exposed.
I wanted to keep this thing as compact as possible which is why I based my sizes around a low profile nylon inset castle nut.
Now about this .305 size difference with the readings. I took the measurement off my 100. The first thing that really catches my eye in your photo is how much shorter the welded collar on the tie rod side is. On my 100 the collar on that side is much longer and both sides look just like your left side view where you have the nut.
That is a pretty stout production variation in tolerance, and I now see the reason for that. I just took a look under my 126 and it too has that shorter collar on the tie rod (deep oil pan) side. This is probably to allow for plenty of clearance for the deep oil pan during the engine install. Now the 100's came with the shallow oil pan. That said, I have a K301 in my 100 with the deep oil pan. As I recall I had to jiggle that engine around quite a bit to get it to drop down into place, the pan was probably hanging a little on the collar. There is still plenty of room between the frame pivot collar and pan once it is place.
So I think it's fair to say the collar thickness change came along when the deep pans arrived on the scene.
I'm not going to chase the thread back on the bolt. I'm going to make a spacer collar .3 thick. That way the pin can be used for any application. There's a ton of room at the forward end of the C channel so no clearance issue there.
It's called reverse engineering
I wanted to keep this thing as compact as possible which is why I based my sizes around a low profile nylon inset castle nut.
Now about this .305 size difference with the readings. I took the measurement off my 100. The first thing that really catches my eye in your photo is how much shorter the welded collar on the tie rod side is. On my 100 the collar on that side is much longer and both sides look just like your left side view where you have the nut.
That is a pretty stout production variation in tolerance, and I now see the reason for that. I just took a look under my 126 and it too has that shorter collar on the tie rod (deep oil pan) side. This is probably to allow for plenty of clearance for the deep oil pan during the engine install. Now the 100's came with the shallow oil pan. That said, I have a K301 in my 100 with the deep oil pan. As I recall I had to jiggle that engine around quite a bit to get it to drop down into place, the pan was probably hanging a little on the collar. There is still plenty of room between the frame pivot collar and pan once it is place.
So I think it's fair to say the collar thickness change came along when the deep pans arrived on the scene.
I'm not going to chase the thread back on the bolt. I'm going to make a spacer collar .3 thick. That way the pin can be used for any application. There's a ton of room at the forward end of the C channel so no clearance issue there.
It's called reverse engineering
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Re: Front axle pin
yeah....that's what I ment . I warned you! Just don't let Big Mike see this.
Next issue is the diameter. Im thinking oversized sounds like trouble. If all the wear was on the front axle and not on the collars....you could end up with another dag moment....lol.
Based on my super bolt experiment....I think most important is keeping the frame snug....if there is a little play around pin at axle....we won't even notice that. Idk
Next issue is the diameter. Im thinking oversized sounds like trouble. If all the wear was on the front axle and not on the collars....you could end up with another dag moment....lol.
Based on my super bolt experiment....I think most important is keeping the frame snug....if there is a little play around pin at axle....we won't even notice that. Idk
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Re: Front axle pin
If u need anything else meaured....just ask.
I also have several of each...100 foot tape measure, transit, speed square, framing square, and loads of standard tape measure
Oh...we can use my new Lazer level.... now that is the bomb!
I also have several of each...100 foot tape measure, transit, speed square, framing square, and loads of standard tape measure
Oh...we can use my new Lazer level.... now that is the bomb!
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Re: Front axle pin
Dag no plumb bob? Everyone needs a half Dozzen of those!
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Re: Front axle pin
Well, it's done. Before I heat treated I decided to add three point lubrication. Now older machines had no grease fittings on the axle but later ones did. So what the heck anyway. I did make a collar to compensate for what would seem to be two different style overall lengths.
I'm not concerned about a plus five pin not passing through, a coupe of the ones I changed out in the past had a lot more slop than that, and I have a adjustable hand expansion reamer that will take that out in a jiffy if necessary.
Don't worry about being a hundred thou off Dave, your lazer level will pick that right up!
No fun drilling that 13/64'' hole five inches deep, I could have turned the thing around and drilled from the other side and plugged it off but any plumb bob coulda done that if there's anything that I dislike it's plugs and shims. I'm not concerned about a plus five pin not passing through, a coupe of the ones I changed out in the past had a lot more slop than that, and I have a adjustable hand expansion reamer that will take that out in a jiffy if necessary.
Don't worry about being a hundred thou off Dave, your lazer level will pick that right up!
- dag1450
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Re: Front axle pin
BOY does that look nice.....and greaseable too! Great job!
Just wondering why you want to harden the new pin? Isn't tool steel already harder than the regular steel of the cub frame?
Just wondering why you want to harden the new pin? Isn't tool steel already harder than the regular steel of the cub frame?
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Re: Front axle pin
Dave, A2 tool steel in an unhardened (green) state is only somewhat tougher to machine than your average medium carbon steel. Essentially it is the same stuff that quality high speed steel drill bits are made out of. It is hardened at 1750 degrees in an oxygen free environment using air tight stainless steel bags for one hour for each inch of cross section, is removed from the oven and allowed to return to room temperature. As an example this 3/4" pin had to be in the 1750 degree oven for 45 minutes. At this point it is brittle and must be tempered, (drawn down). Once cooled, it is returned to the oven and tempered down to as high as Rockwell 57"c" at 400 degrees to maintain a sharp edge, (drill bits, files, punches), or on the low side tempered down to Rockwell 32"c'" at 1300 degrees (the hardness of a typical grade 5 bolt). So it's pretty versatile stuff. A grade 8 bolt will register in at 34 to 38 on the "c" scale although realistically this is not what quality bolts are made from, that would be cost prohibitive. When tempering down there's a very wide hardness band between 1220 and 1280 degrees with this particular material, as little as 20 degrees or so can really change the desired value. I really wanted to see 42 "c" or so and tempered back at 1225 degrees and given it's cross section 1210 would have been better and wound up getting 40 "c" so I'm still combining hardness and extra toughness at the same time.
I do know that the kingpins in older solid axle cars and trucks were a lot harder than that.
But anyway, I'm not looking at any metal working machines for the next four days
I do know that the kingpins in older solid axle cars and trucks were a lot harder than that.
But anyway, I'm not looking at any metal working machines for the next four days
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Re: Front axle pin
Ken - Your metalworking skill is enviable! Fabulous work making the pin.
I hate what I have to say next!... I agree with dag's concern with hardening the bolt. I've never liked the idea of a hardened bolt in my cast iron axle. I'd rather have the thru bolt wear than the axle. All that being said, it will all likely outlast all of us.
Just a thought. Especially with your ability to just "crank out another one" (lol!), why not make the pin the wear item and not harden it? (Heck, heat it back up and anneal it!!)
I hate what I have to say next!... I agree with dag's concern with hardening the bolt. I've never liked the idea of a hardened bolt in my cast iron axle. I'd rather have the thru bolt wear than the axle. All that being said, it will all likely outlast all of us.
Just a thought. Especially with your ability to just "crank out another one" (lol!), why not make the pin the wear item and not harden it? (Heck, heat it back up and anneal it!!)
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Past tractors: 1541, 2135
<><
2182-1, Kwik-Way Loader, 3-pt & rear pto, 442 tiller
2182-2, 54" deck, 551 snow blower
Past tractors: 1541, 2135
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Re: Front axle pin
Ken
Can you say that so us common folk can figure it out?
Can you say that so us common folk can figure it out?
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Re: Front axle pin
Actually I just came in to the AC from digging ditches outside, I assume everyone understands that
The pin is only slightly harder than a high quality bolt.
Two contact surfaces of the approximate same hardness will often create an excessive wear condition on both.
Two contact surfaces of dissimilar hardness will create a minimal wear condition. While not a guarantee it is not uncommon for the harder of the two to wear first.
Except for installing it in some machine I'm all done with that thing
The pin is only slightly harder than a high quality bolt.
Two contact surfaces of the approximate same hardness will often create an excessive wear condition on both.
Two contact surfaces of dissimilar hardness will create a minimal wear condition. While not a guarantee it is not uncommon for the harder of the two to wear first.
Except for installing it in some machine I'm all done with that thing
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Re: Front axle pin
I understand ditches!
If your getting good I need a hole dug under my deck in ledge. Think you can help?
If your getting good I need a hole dug under my deck in ledge. Think you can help?
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Re: Front axle pin
Ken....now for you to hold up your end of our off line conversation...I get you all the critical measurements....you ship..
My address is: 123 rocky mountain way PA
Make sure you slather it down with cosmoline first...i think i saw some rust starting to form
My address is: 123 rocky mountain way PA
Make sure you slather it down with cosmoline first...i think i saw some rust starting to form
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Re: Front axle pin
McMaster-Carr has the almost identical thing under part # 23595T48.
The site will not allow a drawing print out.
I discovered this just yesterday.
The site will not allow a drawing print out.
I discovered this just yesterday.
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Re: Front axle pin
Stupid computer. The page would not export to file.
I wound up taking a photograph from my monitor
I wound up taking a photograph from my monitor
- dag1450
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Re: Front axle pin
Well....Im interested in that pin from M.C.. I did some more measuring on the engine and oil pan sump to the engine mounting bolts. I don't think anything will work .....all I think I have thickness for on the back side of the cross member is about 1/8"-3/16".
So I took out the front axle and put the squeeze on. I measured where the cross member was with the axle installed and the bolt tight, that was my target size. Took a couple trys to get it but I think I'm right there. I'm sure it won't hold up. Only other thing I was thinking was to weld an oversized washer to the back side of the axle pin....then use some shim washers to keep it snug. All the stress would then b on the roll pin if the cross member wants to spread.....idk
So I took out the front axle and put the squeeze on. I measured where the cross member was with the axle installed and the bolt tight, that was my target size. Took a couple trys to get it but I think I'm right there. I'm sure it won't hold up. Only other thing I was thinking was to weld an oversized washer to the back side of the axle pin....then use some shim washers to keep it snug. All the stress would then b on the roll pin if the cross member wants to spread.....idk
127, 1650, 1572, 1872, 2072 . A mower, blower and blade for each.
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Re: Front axle pin
I'm nearly there with this silly little thing.
The pin passes right through the frame rail and the length is spot on. However the pin will not pass through the axle. The expansion reamer is at work so this is going to have to wait a couple of days. Hey getting those things out can be a real pain. A whole lotta whackin, sawin, and PB Blaster for sure but since when did one of those things ever fall out on it's own? Just look at all the wear on the old pin, what's left of it anyhow- I'm getting about a quarter inch between the frame rail bushing and the deep sump oil pan. I'm going to put a generous 30 degree chamfer on the head of the pin to help ease the engine in.
I'm almost there
The pin passes right through the frame rail and the length is spot on. However the pin will not pass through the axle. The expansion reamer is at work so this is going to have to wait a couple of days. Hey getting those things out can be a real pain. A whole lotta whackin, sawin, and PB Blaster for sure but since when did one of those things ever fall out on it's own? Just look at all the wear on the old pin, what's left of it anyhow- I'm getting about a quarter inch between the frame rail bushing and the deep sump oil pan. I'm going to put a generous 30 degree chamfer on the head of the pin to help ease the engine in.
I'm almost there
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Re: Front axle pin
Ken and all, If you have a machine with Windows 8, 8.1 or 10, go dig out the Snipping app that is in there. It lets you to select anything on the screen and save it as an image file.
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/hel ... creenshots
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/hel ... creenshots
Owner of an 1863, 2263 (1863 W 22hp engine!) 2084 and a 2 - 2284s.
"In God we trust, All others pay CASH..."
"In God we trust, All others pay CASH..."
- dag1450
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Re: Front axle pin
Ken....I didn't know you had the deep oil pan? Yeah..I think I was roughly calculating 3/16" room for a bolt head. Anyway I should drop the engine for an exact measurement. I bent the cross member back so the axle is snug....but it's still sloppy. It needs a bolt like your doing.....and I'm going do too. Good job.
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Re: Front axle pin
Dave,
Here's the paradox to installing a bolt in there. The axle is supposed to pivot on the shaft, the shaft is not supposed to rotate within the frame collars.
What is there to stop that from happening if there is no roll pin?
I think that I have the answer. I drilled and tapped a 10-32 hole in the bottom of the rear collar. I'm going to end mill a 7/32" counter bore on location into my pin about 5/32" down. Then during assembly a set screw can be run in till it bottoms out and is then backed off about an eighth of a turn. The set screw can be retained in place by a lock nut. This should do the trick as the roll pin is only 3/16' as well. I'm also going to face off another .050 from the head of my pin to provide a bit more clearance for the deep oil pan but I'm sure there is adequate clearance at this point.
Here's the paradox to installing a bolt in there. The axle is supposed to pivot on the shaft, the shaft is not supposed to rotate within the frame collars.
What is there to stop that from happening if there is no roll pin?
I think that I have the answer. I drilled and tapped a 10-32 hole in the bottom of the rear collar. I'm going to end mill a 7/32" counter bore on location into my pin about 5/32" down. Then during assembly a set screw can be run in till it bottoms out and is then backed off about an eighth of a turn. The set screw can be retained in place by a lock nut. This should do the trick as the roll pin is only 3/16' as well. I'm also going to face off another .050 from the head of my pin to provide a bit more clearance for the deep oil pan but I'm sure there is adequate clearance at this point.
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Re: Front axle pin
Done and I could not be more pleased with it. The axle movement is silky smooth with no end play.
I sent down a #12 self tapping screw and then trimmed it to length. It plugs off the hole preventing grease from escaping.
The anti rotation screw nesting inside the pin counter bore is working perfectly.
The only problem that I encountered is that the forward grease hole in the axle pin fell directly in line with the former roll pin location. I sent down a #12 self tapping screw and then trimmed it to length. It plugs off the hole preventing grease from escaping.
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Re: Front axle pin
Looks great Ken. I got my parts
today. I need to thin the head.... and cut the length. I could not find a 3/4" lock nut....so I got a castle nut. How does grade 8 drill? This is the no frills repair
today. I need to thin the head.... and cut the length. I could not find a 3/4" lock nut....so I got a castle nut. How does grade 8 drill? This is the no frills repair
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Re: Front axle pin
It will be drillable. But a 8% cobalt drill would work better. You can't find a 3/4 -16 nylock nut? Any decent hardware store should have that.
Check the axle. The latter machines had a grease fitting at the yoke, yours may have fallen out.
Check the axle. The latter machines had a grease fitting at the yoke, yours may have fallen out.
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Re: Front axle pin
Yeah the pin is greaseable with the factory zerk in the axle. I thinned the new bolt head to about 3/16". Really was easy and I think I will make an open end wrench out of 1/8" plate for installation. I found the bolt at tractor supply..... yeah I will look around for a better lock nut, the castle is not ideal
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Re: Front axle pin
Dave, I dropped the deep oil pan engine in last night. After bolting it to the frame I checked clearance. There was about 1/4" spacing on my 100 so I think you should be good with what you have.
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Re: Front axle pin
I ran into an interference issue with my axle pin this Afternoon. I was installing the mule drive and it would not line up. I checked underneath and noticed that the idler pulley cross arm was striking the grease fitting. Well, it was just dumb luck that I had tapped that hole so I was able to remove it. If I had gone with a press in fitting there would have been trouble. Anyway with the mule drive up in place there was plenty of room to reinstall the grease fitting.
Whew! Those 100's can be a pain to work on though, I had to loosen the front grille assembly just to install the mower drive belt.
Whew! Those 100's can be a pain to work on though, I had to loosen the front grille assembly just to install the mower drive belt.
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Re: Front axle pin
Thanks Ken. I thought the front was smooth sailing. I better get the mule out and see what clearance I have on the front end now . Yours is a thin lock nut? Were your threads 3/4x16?
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Re: Front axle pin
Dave, I like the way it's going.
The one that I picked up at my local hardware store sure did look like this one. It was less than 2 bucks.
The one that I picked up at my local hardware store sure did look like this one. It was less than 2 bucks.
- dag1450
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Re: Front axle pin
Ok...my front axle pin is done. I'm happy how it turned out. It's not as custom as Ken's....but I think it will get the job done. 3/4" grade 8 bolt from tractor supply, thin lock nut from Ace hardware. I did have to cut both ends of the bolt. Total cost... $7.00.
127, 1650, 1572, 1872, 2072 . A mower, blower and blade for each.