K 241 running badly

Here is where we can talk about all things Cub and then some. Please follow the golden rule and respect others.
This is a free forum and all pictures posted here are for public consumption. They are free to be used as long as you are not using them in a for-profit manner. Also, any pictures subject to copyright or permissions will be removed.
Post Reply
Klapatta
Posts: 1386
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:25 pm
First and Last Name: Kenneth LaPatta
Location: Rockingham VT.

K 241 running badly

Post by Klapatta »

The throttle response on my 102 began acting up last Summer. The engine had twelve years on a complete rebuild. It would only get worse as the engine got hotter, usually after a half hour or so. My thinking at the time was a valve sticking.
After this last snow cleanup it really began to run terrible and it was past time to do something about it. Trying to adjust the carb pointed me more toward a fuel issue as It would now only run with the choke one third engaged.
I decided to replace it with another rebuilt one that had been proven good on a another test run 241.
After disconnecting the linkages and gas line I was to discover that the two mounting bolts were not even finger tight!
I went and changed it out anyway. It runs great again. Will rebuild the take off anyway since it's up on the bench now.
Who would have ever figured? That's a new one on me.
DSCN0634.JPG
DSCN0634.JPG (1.12 MiB) Viewed 23671 times
DSCN0635.JPG
DSCN0635.JPG (1.1 MiB) Viewed 23671 times
User avatar
dag1450
Posts: 2418
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:16 pm
First and Last Name: Dave Gibson
Location: Chalfont, Pa

Re: K 241 running badly

Post by dag1450 »

Glad to hear it was a nice easy fix.
127, 1650, 1572, 1872, 2072 . A mower, blower and blade for each.
Klapatta
Posts: 1386
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:25 pm
First and Last Name: Kenneth LaPatta
Location: Rockingham VT.

Re: K 241 running badly

Post by Klapatta »

My bad Dave. Over tightening will create flange warpage issues but not tight enough will cause problems of it's own.
Swapping out was the way to go. This old core cleaned up real nice but the seals were quite dried out. Throttle shaft is silky smooth too, seems to me I recall making an oversize one way back when.
DSCN0637.JPG
DSCN0637.JPG (1.02 MiB) Viewed 23661 times
I'm glad that's all it was, Winter is only half over
User avatar
dag1450
Posts: 2418
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:16 pm
First and Last Name: Dave Gibson
Location: Chalfont, Pa

Re: K 241 running badly

Post by dag1450 »

Im just trying to think.... does that have the thick cardboard gasket to the block? Probably a dab of blue locker on those studs?
On another topic....do you ever have to readjust your carb settings from winter to summer? I don't remember doing that on the 127, but my dad's 6 horse snowblower....we tune it up in nice weather....then he says it blows black smoke in the heat of the battle. I'm never there to fiddle with jet, but the evidence is clear....black soot on the carb air box. Idk somehow the cold is making it rich?
127, 1650, 1572, 1872, 2072 . A mower, blower and blade for each.
Klapatta
Posts: 1386
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:25 pm
First and Last Name: Kenneth LaPatta
Location: Rockingham VT.

Re: K 241 running badly

Post by Klapatta »

Dave, regarding that thick composition gasket perhaps the older ones were a cardboard substrate, I really don't know. But a new one will be two regular thin gaskets sandwiched on to a center plastic insert. The whole thing will be just about 1/8" thick. They were called out as for use with the quiet line series I think. It is obviously an effort to isolate the carb from the heat of the engine block and it probably does that well for any K engine that it is used on. They are very pricey though.
Because of the air leak at my mount up point the engine was so lean that the only way it would run was with the choke closed somewhat. A dab of gasket sealer at that point could help but that can get a bit messy, if both surfaces are flat and clean there's really no need for that I'd think. Truth be told I probably never had those bolts tight enough. It took months for them to slowly back out.
To answer your other question I really have never seen the need for making adjustments between the seasons. Those old K series seem very tolerant of that, a quarter turn either way on the power or idle settings just does not seem to matter all that much but when they are set too rich or too lean the exhaust tone and or dark smoke will let you know.
User avatar
Tom Scott
Chief Moderator
Posts: 1825
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:11 pm
First and Last Name: Tom Scott
Location: Bentley Springs, Maryland

Re: K 241 running badly

Post by Tom Scott »

I think dag was mentioning blue threadlocker for the mounting bolts. Threadlocker on the bolts would be fine, but probably not needed if properly torqued. Also, as Ken says, gasket sealant at carb base should never be needed and is generally a bad idea. Too many small holes nearby that could pick some up, and it just shouldn't be needed. You're only sealing against engine vacuum, just not that much pressure differential.

Regarding cold weather engine performance and jetting... Carburetors meter fuel based on air volume but the engine wants the ratio of air/fuel based on mass(i.e., weight). All carbureted engines will be affected by air temp (and humidity and barometric pressure if we get picky).

A certain mass of air will occupy less volume at cold temps, so you can pack more mass of air into each piston stroke. Therefore, engines tend to lean out as the temperature falls. That said, most of these four stroke engines and carbs have a wide enough tolerance band and it doesn't usually require retuning unless you need absolute optimal performance.

What you were most likely noticing with your Dad's snowblower is that in fair weather you had no way to put a load on it to check the tune properly. The closest you could do is drive it up a steep hill, but even then it probably isn't anywhere near the load a full chute of snow would put on it.

These carbs have two fuel circuits, an idle circuit and a power circuit. Even at 3600 rpm most of the fuel is coming from the idle circuit so you can't really judge the proper tune of the power circuit until you put a load on it.
1872, 46", 50C decks, Haban dozer blade, 450 snow blower
2182-1, Kwik-Way Loader, 3-pt & rear pto, 442 tiller
2182-2, 54" deck, 551 snow blower
Past tractors:  1541, 2135
<><
User avatar
dag1450
Posts: 2418
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:16 pm
First and Last Name: Dave Gibson
Location: Chalfont, Pa

Re: K 241 running badly

Post by dag1450 »

Thanks guys. I should probably just take the carb off and give it a good cleaning.... and then adjust. Tom you might be on to something about the load. I'm recalling him saying not enough power...so he moved choke to first notch. That's probably when the black soot was occuring Actually similar to what kens symptoms. It's a 1970s Jacobsen "beast". Super simple carb setup. What I tried to do last time I worked on it was replace the muffler ....to no avail. It's all rotted out. Man that still bothers me. One Phillips screw broke three bits. It's one of those big boy Phillips heads. Now I have one of those old school hammer type impact things so I may give that a whirl.
127, 1650, 1572, 1872, 2072 . A mower, blower and blade for each.
Klapatta
Posts: 1386
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:25 pm
First and Last Name: Kenneth LaPatta
Location: Rockingham VT.

Re: K 241 running badly

Post by Klapatta »

Update. The problem returned. Other than installing a nice, fresh carb it would seem I had achieved nothing at all.
Everything seemed just fine until yesterday when I was pushing snow banks back because that's what I do in March when another storm is coming.
The issue returned with loss of power and poor throttle response, attempting to make carb adjustments did nothing.
I was done with work and backed it up into it's spot for the Friday storm. I tried reving the engine before shutting it down and it just quit. And that was that. One thing that I did notice before it gave up for good was black exhaust smoke and lots of it. That be unburned hydrocarbons for sure.
Now I need that busted down yellow thing for Friday's mess heading my way so this Morning I launched into crisis mode. The first thing that I checked for was spark. There was none. Now the plug, points, and condenser are all fairly recent. There was full 12 volts at the coil input side.
Changing out the coil resolved the spark issue.
I turned the key and it touched off on the second burp.
DSCN0690.JPG
DSCN0690.JPG (1.24 MiB) Viewed 23497 times
The old coil was nothing to write home about anyway.
DSCN0691.JPG
DSCN0691.JPG (822.82 KiB) Viewed 23497 times
I have heard it said that a coil either works or does not. Yeah, well I think not.This machine has been running crappy for the last six months and the issue always began rearing it's ugly face after running for a half hour to 45 minutes whereas things points to a heat related condition. This is not the first time that I have seen this issue. The coil warms up and the windings begin to open from the inside. However this time around when it failed it failed for good.
At least that's my speculation.
Fingers crossed that was it. This thing has got to chug snow.
User avatar
Tom Scott
Chief Moderator
Posts: 1825
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:11 pm
First and Last Name: Tom Scott
Location: Bentley Springs, Maryland

Re: K 241 running badly

Post by Tom Scott »

Ken, I think you've got it nailed now. Nothing lost addressing the carb, finger tight mounting bolts and dried up gaskets were either part of the problem or about to be. I agree that coils aren't always digital, they can cause intermittent problems as they start to fail and can therefore be difficult to troubleshoot. I hate intermittent problems, it's just so much easier when something craps out all at once! Having a spare good coil on hand is sometimes the easiest troubleshooting.

It'll likely be real dependable for quite some time now, good work!
:beer:
1872, 46", 50C decks, Haban dozer blade, 450 snow blower
2182-1, Kwik-Way Loader, 3-pt & rear pto, 442 tiller
2182-2, 54" deck, 551 snow blower
Past tractors:  1541, 2135
<><
Klapatta
Posts: 1386
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:25 pm
First and Last Name: Kenneth LaPatta
Location: Rockingham VT.

Re: K 241 running badly

Post by Klapatta »

I will find with it under load soon enough. Six to ten predicted.
I found this too. What a blue cost in 2012
DSCN0693.JPG
DSCN0693.JPG (1.02 MiB) Viewed 23481 times
Klapatta
Posts: 1386
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:25 pm
First and Last Name: Kenneth LaPatta
Location: Rockingham VT.

Re: K 241 running badly

Post by Klapatta »

I'm embarrassed to report after all this how badly this thing is still running. The symptoms are more or less the same. It runs Ok for a half hour or so and then the power loss comes and rough running comes back. This most recent carburetor I installed has the bad habit of pouring fuel from out the bottom of the venturi at the lower port. Tapping on the carburetor with something will unstick the float seat. All of this is brand new Kohler replacement parts and the float was set to specification.
Now the next thing that I see doing to try installing ANOTHER carburetor and see what happens then. The float was good, it passed float testing and will shut off when it's tapped on but here again there's a new kit installed, why it would stick at all makes no sense. The height setting was correct too. Gas cap is Ok.
Lucky for me I was able to get the drive cleared out with it as is but this jury rigging can't go on like that.That engine is normally very frugal with fuel and I'm noticing a huge increase in fuel consumption.
If anyone can off an idea I'd like to hear from you.
User avatar
dag1450
Posts: 2418
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:16 pm
First and Last Name: Dave Gibson
Location: Chalfont, Pa

Re: K 241 running badly

Post by dag1450 »

Oh man! That stinks! Just to get this out of my head I will ask when was the fuel system drained and nice fresh gasoline installed. I think you keep them outside. Could the warmer winter temps be causing excessive condensation.... its frozen in the tank when you first start it....then it thaws out once warm. Lol. I know I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel for ideas. Lol. Good luck Ken
127, 1650, 1572, 1872, 2072 . A mower, blower and blade for each.
DaveKamp
Posts: 557
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:19 am
First and Last Name: Dave Kamp
Location: LeClaire, Ia

Re: K 241 running badly

Post by DaveKamp »

Okay, so after reading everything, I'll throw a couple of notes in... NONE of them should be considered 'my real answer', as without doing a bunch of tests, I couldn't be certain but...

Tom's point about carbeurators being a 'volume' device in a 'mass' application is spot-on, as it's volume and velocity flowing through a venturi which develops the pressure differential which draws in fuel... with the effective mass metered being a function of the HEIGHT which fuel must be lifted from the bowl (float level) into the venturi, and as he noted, the idle circuit being the primary flow source, with the POWER circuit being ultimately restrictted by the power jet orfice.

Okay, to ignition... yeah, coils can be 'partly' good... aka 'intermittant' due to a winding being fractured inside the coil assembly. Running temperature (thermal expansion) and vibration (fatigue) are what cause this. Single cylinder engines are generally the HARDEST circumstance an ignition coil can endure, especially when the coil is mounted right to the block, and for THREE reasons- primary and secondary balance (shake the crap out of it on two directions) a whole lot of directly conducted heat, and finally... excess dwell time. The latter being the amount of time the coil spends energized, before the points open and allow the field to collapse. See, when you apply power to a coil, current flowing through the coil primary builds a magnetic field. once the magnetic field has fully built, the coil is just sitting there, flowing current, generating heat, but not doing anything but waiting for points to open. Long dwell time causes that coil to carry current for a very long time, and it's basically a big resistor during all the time it's saturated... so it's generating lots of internal heat for no reason. If that same coil was running a 2-cylinder, it'd be discharging once every 360 degrees, rather than once every 720, so it's actual DWELL TIME in a 2-cyl is less than HALF it's dwell time in a single cyl.

I think many guys make the mistake of using an automotive or common tractor coil on a K-single, and don't realize how special the K-single's stock coil actually IS... and when the 4-cyl tractor coil (which runs significantly less dwell than the K-single's) doesn't work, they think the problem is elsewhere. I'm not sayin' the Bosch Blue is the wrong coil, I don't know... but even if it WAS intended to be good for a K-single electrically, it may have been beaten-to-death by bad vibes, too. i've killed plenty of coils ;-)

K-single points. The design of the K-single points has a significant foible- the wire terminal connects to the contact points THROUGH the point SPRING... Wire terminal holds the spring, which pushes the points closed.

When current flows through spring steel, it generates heat... because steel is significantly more resistive than say... copper, or silver, or aluminum, or other stuff. When you heat up spring steel, it' looses it's SPRING... and when that happens, points don't close for pooh... and then there's misfires, late spark events, and stuff like that. Often overlooked is weak springs.

Bad condensers to bad things... and every time I had an engine that had points and coil problems, the part that actually FIXED it, was an actually GOOD condenser (not the common useless junk we get nowdays).

Sticky valve crud. K-singles are flatheads, and flatheads build up oil fouling crud on valve stems. When they foul, the exhaust blackens, the engine gets weak, and frequently just won't hold RPM... and this happens when the engine (and valve stems) get well warmed, such that the valve fouling "gak" becomes a sticky tar that holds the exhaust valve open for a good longer time than necessary. This makes for some really poor running compression, but when you shut the engine down, the valves settle home and it looks fine.
The common 'treatment' is to add a significant dose of Marvel Mystery Oil to the fuel, and run the engine like a rented mule 'till the neighborhood mosquitos cover the sidewalks for a half-mile circle.

Loose carb bolts? Hell yeah, I've had it happen at LEAST 5-6 times on K-singles. I've had two scenarios be the result of the carb bolts actually bottoming in the holes at the same point that the carb gasket has just SLIGHTLY STARTED to take a little squish force... My ASSUMPTION is that the heating/cooling cycles of the block were just enough to cause the bolts to start backing out (did I mention vibration?), and after installing lock washers under the bolts, I realized that the bolt length was causing most of the problem. I shortened the bolts by three threads, then put some teflon pipe dope on 'em instead of blue locktite, and that has done pretty well so far. Do look out for shouldered bolts, the non-threaded area may be causing it all.

The last note that comes to mind, is the season.

Snowblowers never get used on warm-dry-summer days, and there's always plenty of moisture from engine heat, and that moistened winter air gets sucked into the carb, where it ices up the filter and carb throat... which screws up airflow and mixture. This MAY be related to your probs... :ugeek:
Yes, I'm a Mad Scientist... but I'm usually happy, even when things ain't goin right.
Klapatta
Posts: 1386
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:25 pm
First and Last Name: Kenneth LaPatta
Location: Rockingham VT.

Re: K 241 running badly

Post by Klapatta »

Thanks for the input Dave, here's what's new at this point. Bad fuel has never been my issue, I run only non ethanol and it smelled fresh. I changed out the carburetor with another one. It started right up and seemed to run well but that's been said before. With the driveway all cleaned up I'm fresh out of places to push around enough snow to replicate the condition, try as I did it for about 45 minutes with no negative results surfacing. But that largely was not under load. Still I do not think that it sounds as sweet as it could or I'm just turning tone deaf.
I have my special wrench bent up for the job so with practice I'm getting pretty fast with changing those things out :lol:
DSCN0713.JPG
DSCN0713.JPG (1.21 MiB) Viewed 23452 times
I'm in need of addressing some additional points next.
It's time to take a much closer look at the points just to be safe. Set timing using a light. The new coil is internally resisted 3.2 ohms and is just fine.
The head has not been removed for carbon cleaning since the rebuild 12 years ago, probably about 300 hours on it I'd guess. I'm starting to suspect more now that a valve could be sticking this in spite of fairly regular MMO use. The valves have not been lashed in all that time either, I'd better see.
! Today I noticed what I'd consider reduced air flow coming out from around the engine exhaust fins. There just may be an internal blockage such as a mouse nest down inside and the top end winds up over heating. That would be easy to spot after pulling the head off.
Klapatta
Posts: 1386
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:25 pm
First and Last Name: Kenneth LaPatta
Location: Rockingham VT.

Re: K 241 running badly

Post by Klapatta »

Today I drove it like I stole it. Pushing back two foot high wet snow banks in second gear for almost an hour. It balked but it never stalled.
It is all constipated with sticky crud inside and needs a good enema.
And that burnt up crud at the exhaust manifold is leaky head gasket.
I'll be pulling off the head when time permits.
The Bosch blue coil is my replacement for the burned out black one.
I have had a Bosch blue on the 126 for going on almost twenty years now with it never letting me down.
I'll replace the points too.
These newer NAPA condensers coming in from Taiwan are better then the older ones that came from Mexico.
The best condensers are those much older, skinny longer types with the Kohler end stamping.
User avatar
dag1450
Posts: 2418
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:16 pm
First and Last Name: Dave Gibson
Location: Chalfont, Pa

Re: K 241 running badly

Post by dag1450 »

Good to hear your getting things figured out. That carb wrench is great. Might get a dusting tonight north of Philadelphia..... might.
127, 1650, 1572, 1872, 2072 . A mower, blower and blade for each.
User avatar
Tom Scott
Chief Moderator
Posts: 1825
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:11 pm
First and Last Name: Tom Scott
Location: Bentley Springs, Maryland

Re: K 241 running badly

Post by Tom Scott »

Ken, I'd try running it heavily dosed on MMO, perhaps that will clean it up. Anyway, it sounds like you're honed in on a solution.
:beer:
1872, 46", 50C decks, Haban dozer blade, 450 snow blower
2182-1, Kwik-Way Loader, 3-pt & rear pto, 442 tiller
2182-2, 54" deck, 551 snow blower
Past tractors:  1541, 2135
<><
Klapatta
Posts: 1386
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:25 pm
First and Last Name: Kenneth LaPatta
Location: Rockingham VT.

Re: K 241 running badly

Post by Klapatta »

Tom, I have this way of understating the obvious.
After further review I came to realize that I was having my moment of clarity.
The points have not been serviced since the engine rebuild.
I decided to take a good look.
Whoops-
DSCN0717.JPG
DSCN0717.JPG (721.46 KiB) Viewed 23337 times
I set the new points against an actual timing light while at fast idle.
It does seem to run better now with a more responsive throttle up.The carburetor settings seem more sensitive and responsive as well. But thinking I had this licked before makes me still skeptical. But it's another step in the right direction that can't hurt. The real test will be after it's been run for a full hour. Snow is heading our way so this is not out of the question. This would sure beat pulling the head off as I'm not too keen about doing that at all.
Now that old black coil did in fact fail. I wonder if this had to do anything with that.
User avatar
Tom Scott
Chief Moderator
Posts: 1825
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:11 pm
First and Last Name: Tom Scott
Location: Bentley Springs, Maryland

Re: K 241 running badly

Post by Tom Scott »

Ken - I find in the real world, there really aren't all that many coincidences, so hopefully this will be it. I mean, really, how much can really be destined to fail all at the same time? Lol :lol:

I don't see how bad points could wipe out the coil, but very easily the other way around... An internally shorted coil will but a big load on the points and burn them out. I suspect that's what happened, so not really a coincidence. The coil went bad, and toasted the points.

The carb was just the next problem waiting to happen and you found it along the way. I'd still keep MMO in every tankful, keep her clean. I dose every 5 gallon can with MMO before heading to fill them, I figure it's good prevention for all the outdoor power equipment.

Here's to hoping it's good to go now!
:beer:
1872, 46", 50C decks, Haban dozer blade, 450 snow blower
2182-1, Kwik-Way Loader, 3-pt & rear pto, 442 tiller
2182-2, 54" deck, 551 snow blower
Past tractors:  1541, 2135
<><
DaveKamp
Posts: 557
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:19 am
First and Last Name: Dave Kamp
Location: LeClaire, Ia

Re: K 241 running badly

Post by DaveKamp »

So... the most common failure I see in K-single points... is that the SPRING sacks out.

It's a tempered steel strip spring, that coil current flows THROUGH.

Easiest way to ruin it, is to accidentally leave the ignition switch on after the engine stalls.

Sitting with engine stopped, points closed, and key on, will cause that spring to heat up, and eventually ruin it's own heat treatment, so spring pressure falls to flaccid-at-best... and then, it won't rev up... because the points won't close.

Bad points wouldn't so much kill a coil, but the same thing that kills points, will at exact same time kill a coil...
Yes, I'm a Mad Scientist... but I'm usually happy, even when things ain't goin right.
Klapatta
Posts: 1386
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:25 pm
First and Last Name: Kenneth LaPatta
Location: Rockingham VT.

Re: K 241 running badly

Post by Klapatta »

So here's a set of points that probably at one time overheated. I'm used to seeing the a bright silver spring color.
This one has a straw hue to it. It does still have plenty of tension.
DSCN0722.JPG
DSCN0722.JPG (474.42 KiB) Viewed 23315 times
Straw color is associated with temperatures in the 350 to 400 degree range so yeah I think that this one probably got hot.

The subject of condensers came along. Yes, I agree that the quality of them was way down for a long time.
I have heard reports that quality issues abound with replacement condensers for the old Maytag engines too.
However the newer NAPA issue ones made in Taiwan are pretty good I think. The genuine Kohler points will cost you twice as much. I have no idea who makes them.
The new stock NAPA part will be bagged and look like this. O'Riley sells the same thing, I looked into that.
DSCN0725.JPG
DSCN0725.JPG (677.44 KiB) Viewed 23315 times
DSCN0726.JPG
DSCN0726.JPG (815.31 KiB) Viewed 23315 times
The best condensers IMHO for the K series were the very old, narrow style Kohler branded part. The old style is on the left. Current manufacture representing most every brand is on the right. I have tested and compared these 50 year old condensers against others and they actually wind up reading stronger. I wonder how many tens of thousands of them got tossed into the trash back in the day.
Attachments
DSCN0728.JPG
DSCN0728.JPG (750.48 KiB) Viewed 23315 times
User avatar
Dave C
Web Developer
Posts: 1026
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:12 am
First and Last Name: David Chester
Location: Wallingford, CT

Re: K 241 running badly

Post by Dave C »

I feel like i have always had better luck with diggin down the bottom of my junk engine parts drawer and pulling out a nice old Delco Embossed coil with already attached oem kohler condenser vintage 1960 1970. Seems like i always end up fighting with new stuff. I think i have even had brand new kohler points just simply not work. even after a good sand polish and cleaning.... and no spark. It always reminds me of my Grandfather who would shake his head when i was just out buying new parts to simply say it was "new" And he would say nothing wrong, test it, fix it. And not replace it. Mostly from a time when people had no money and little access to get new parts.
That being said i am aware that coils do go bad open up inside, victims of overheating, points loose their spring, and condensers go bad? But do they really? But i feel that oodles and ooddles of these things were tossed for no good reason!!
Thats my 2 cents anyhow
Trying to save cubs... one at a time.......
Klapatta
Posts: 1386
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:25 pm
First and Last Name: Kenneth LaPatta
Location: Rockingham VT.

Re: K 241 running badly

Post by Klapatta »

How very true indeed Dave. Here's a Delco condenser that I kept around without knowing if it was good or not.
DSCN0748.JPG
DSCN0748.JPG (726.2 KiB) Viewed 23284 times
DSCN0749.JPG
DSCN0749.JPG (823.17 KiB) Viewed 23284 times
I bought a condenser checker some months ago and totally forgot about the thing after finding out it needed a 9 volt battery :?
Mu Son is involved with his Maytag restorations so the topic came back to the table during the ignition phase of his projects. With battery in hand I brought the thing out and we went through the steps to operate it. I can get totally lost when it comes to anything digital, give me my Simpson 260 any day :lol:
Anyway, what we learned was every condenser from a Cub Cadet we tested measured right around .25 microfarad.
The old Kohler stamped one measured in at .257 Mf- it was the strongest of the group.
DSCN0745.JPG
DSCN0745.JPG (1.1 MiB) Viewed 23284 times
According to what we have been told the Maytag manufactured part should read .154 Mf.
DSCN0747.JPG
DSCN0747.JPG (1.12 MiB) Viewed 23284 times
Generally speaking a ten percent plus or minus tolerance band is acceptable regarding resistors and condensers.
So here we have a seventy plus year old part that is reading .187 Mf, essentially as good as the day it was made.
Klapatta
Posts: 1386
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:25 pm
First and Last Name: Kenneth LaPatta
Location: Rockingham VT.

Re: K 241 running badly

Post by Klapatta »

There were multiple causes for the issues that I was experiencing. Other than regular oil changes and a couple of spark plug and air filter changes the engine had been largely neglected for well over ten years. I followed the advise posted here and ran a mix of Marvel Mystery oil at five ounces to one gallon of Sunoco 91 octane non ethanol. This put my mix right up into two cycle territory. There was no real smoke to speak of but the sweet smell of oil can be detected in the air. A quart of MMO is roughly ten bucks around here. With our most recent snow I ran the machine hard for at least several hours. I began to notice a change in the exhaust tone after running it only five minutes or so. Whereas previously the exhaust pitch sounded raspy much like a muffled backfire with every cycle the overall tone had changed substantially. While the engine turned over by hand with very much compression it would seem that at running speeds the exhaust valve was sticking and delayed just enough to cause this condition.
Other issues included a loose carburetor that was badly in need of cleaning and rebuild.
A internally shorting out ignition coil that showed itself only after warming up followed by a complete failure made for a more difficult diagnostic.
The ignition points were badly contaminated and worn. In spite of my thinking that they were recently serviced they were in fact in use for thirteen years. The ignition timing could have been above and past top dead center for all I know. The spark plug has been replaced as they are cheap insurance. I really prefer the Autolite 216 for these engines. Recently an improvement on these has been made as well. While they used to have a black oxide body that is now changed to an improved nickel coated finish.
I have yet to remove the head for de carbon or adjust the valves and honestly would prefer not to bother with that however I have placed the necessary parts on order should I do. These would be the only things left uncovered to do.
With mud season and driveway grading right around the corner I'll know more when the time arrives.
DaveKamp
Posts: 557
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:19 am
First and Last Name: Dave Kamp
Location: LeClaire, Ia

Re: K 241 running badly

Post by DaveKamp »

Congrats, Ken!

So, EVERY one of those circumstances will have an accumulated effect on perofrmance, and I suspect you were seeing a little of all basically ALL the time, and a healthy dose of at least ONE tearing you up at crucial moments.

In any case, you've stumbled upon proof of just how tolerant the K-Single can be, and somehow still be alive... it's like... a zombie... it won't stop until you blow it's head off... or... a connecting rod...

After running the pants off if it with a minty-dose of MMO, and replacing the ignition system, there's really only a couple of things you could do to give it a 20-year freshening-up...

Pull out and test the valve springs, Wire-brush and lap the valves...
Clean out the breather... the cover over the valve springs...
Yank the muffler, and put a new one on (they rot out inside, and can clog up a bit, but once you shake out all the rust, they lose whatever tuning properties they HAD... )



About everything else will be fine.
Yes, I'm a Mad Scientist... but I'm usually happy, even when things ain't goin right.
Klapatta
Posts: 1386
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:25 pm
First and Last Name: Kenneth LaPatta
Location: Rockingham VT.

Re: K 241 running badly

Post by Klapatta »

Yes indeed Dave, 100% on that for sure!
A care package arrived in my mail box today and honestly I hope not to use any of it for just now.
DSCN0803.JPG
DSCN0803.JPG (891.4 KiB) Viewed 23160 times
I ought to mention that current manufacture Autolite plugs are imported and are packed this way.
DSCN0791.JPG
DSCN0791.JPG (1.27 MiB) Viewed 23160 times
Older Autolite USA manufactured plugs look and are packaged like this-
DSCN0793.JPG
DSCN0793.JPG (977.53 KiB) Viewed 23160 times
Both perform well. Here is a direct side by side comparison with the imported type to the right, as in C, it is clearly marked on the box.
DSCN0805.JPG
DSCN0805.JPG (1.03 MiB) Viewed 23160 times
For a short time going back years ago Autolite produced a platinum tip version of this plug designated MP4316.
DSCN0799.JPG
DSCN0799.JPG (1 MiB) Viewed 23160 times
They were not manufactured for more than a couple of years at the most. They probably sold poorly. I never saw any advantages in using them and they were also very expensive.
These are not to be confused with the Autolite plug designated 4316. That particular plug costs a buck and change less than the 216.
I have compared the specifications of both and can see no construction differences, both are copper core with no internal resistor, same reach, and of the same heat range. The only difference that stands out that I can see is the 216 offers the two year warranty while the 4316 has just a one year warranty. 
Post Reply